Hi, all.

I am considering the purchase of a compact rifle in 5.56 to complement my 16” AR. I would like to avoid the NFA at this time. As a result, I am looking at an 11.5” AR pistol or a bullpup (X95 or AUG). I am aware of many of the shootability and ballistic tradeoffs:

The AR pistol is lighter, has AR familiarity, is more compact, more customizable, but have a loss in muzzle velocity, will be measurably louder, and no shoulder mounting.

The bullpup has a full-length barrel so no loss in muzzle velocity, is easier to maneuver one-handed, but has a bit different manual of arms and is less customizable.

My main reason for asking is what may be the other pros and cons that I’m missing. For instance, what are the benefits of the AR being an actual pistol as opposed to a rifle? Legality in transport, carry, etc. What (if anything) can be added to the receiver extension of an AR pistol such that it will remain a pistol and not have any ATF worries? Can the AR pistol have a Law Tactical folding mechanism be added? Which is easier to suppress, if I went down that road at a later time? Stuff like that.

As someone who’d like to purchase their first compact weapon in 5.56 which would you recommend?

Thanks for your time.

Chris

My purpose for a rifle caliber pistol is the ability to legally carry a loaded, more capable firearm in a vehicle. I see you're in PA so that would apply in your case as well. A practiced cheek weld is a very efficient use of the weapon. No NFA required. Jury's still out on what allowable attachments will eventually be accepted. Can't help with the last question. My pistols are in 7.62x39. An AR pistol should be much easier to learn to shoot from the cheek.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pace40,

I have an AR pistol with a LAW adapter. And know of no laws that prohibit it being on the pistol. I took the brace off mine until the case is sorted out and reinstalled the foam sleeve. I am a GOA member and would be exempted from the brace enforcement, but it’s easier not to draw attention to myself .

I live in TX and travel thru states to NC and FL and none of them prohibit the AR pistol. I also installed a Pantheon Prometheus Barrel switch Here device and I can break the barrel down by quickly removing it, then fold the recoil tube. The whole thing fits into a 50cal can, but I move it about in a black and orange computer bag that doesn’t attract the eye when I’m entering or leaving a hotel.

Suck it up and get an SBR. Everything else is wrought with compromise (even braced pistols) and just doing it the hard way from the beginning is going to save you time and frustration.

If you insist, I suppose an AR pistol makes more sense because 1) it's not a bullpup and 2) it can be SBRed later.

The one you can buy spare parts for by the trainload by a thousand different companies, and assemble with only a couple special tools.

I would also say go full SBR if you are hung up on the AR design, or go for a bullpup. I'd pick the bullpup because you get more in a similarly small package without the tax stamp and wait. Train with the model you pick and there should be no problem.

I miss the Hebrew Hammer, (Tavor), I had, as it was a nice shooting gun and easy to operate. It was compact, reliable and fun/easy to shoot. It didn't recoil as hard as an ar-15, if that is possible/makes any sense. I sold it to a family member who wanted a rifle and gave him the same deal I got it for.I will get another one of these days.

I had a FS2000 and it felt and was a huge gun to shoot.

The AUG I owned was another good gun but at the time, they didn't offer one that took ar-15 mags, so I sold it as mags at the time, were pricey comparatively and I had a ton of ar-15 mags.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
Suck it up and get an SBR. Everything else is wrought with compromise (even braced pistols) and just doing it the hard way from the beginning is going to save you time and frustration.

If you insist, I suppose an AR pistol makes more sense because 1) it's not a bullpup and 2) it can be SBRed later.

I agree with this. A proper stock on a short rifle is the cat's pajamas.

F1's usually process faster than F4's...

If they ever get the pistol brace issue resolved I don't see any real benefit of an SBR in a AR. I would love to hear the argument of why a 200 dollar tax stamp and an inability to easily move from state to state with it is better than a pistol brace. I suppose if I need to mortar my pistol brace a buttstock is better but for actual shooting it is a wash. (yes without the NFA I would put on a buttstock just because they are purpose built and there is more variety, in actual use I never had a single issue with a SBA3(I believe), it just worked, just like a buttstock)

I'm not sure what the compromise is that DabigBR is speaking of. I have never seen them fail, I have never had one slow me down in the slightest. Because of the NFA I actually prefer the pistol brace. Before the fiasco of pistol braces I did a couple, a dedicated 22, 9mm, and 5.56. Never once did I shoot them and sense any compromise. In fact the 22 pistol was shot to death and I couldn't have made a better gun. Being an SBR would have actually made it LESS useful to me because of the legality of travel.

So right this second I would get a bullpup. Pistol braces come back, I would probably get both. lol

I reread my post. Of course the pistol brace is a compromise but in my use it is a compromise without any teeth, no downside, in fact due to legalities it is preferential to a tax stamp to me. I will never do a tax stamp again (except for suppressors). doctorsolo is correct, they are the cats pajamas, if it wasn't for the tax stamp and the felonies that transporting across state lines without the proper paperwork. To me that is the anti definition of cats pajamas. I can't easily transport, it costs 200 bucks, I can't just sell it easily or hand it down to my children, all of the above involves govt regulated nonsense which makes the pistol brace the actual cats pajamas. lol

I've never been mistaken for a thrifty man, but I paid the 200$ because I don't travel much with my guns, real stocks are far more comfortable than "braces" and I get to avoid the whole brace-ambiguity issue altogether.

I can say "Yes, this is an SBR, go away."

That obviously has different value for different people.

I don't disagree with your logic for you. I, on the other hand, do travel. I also want to hand everything down to my children with minimal fuss. NFA is the opposite of minimal fuss. The 200 bucks doesn't move my needle by itself. It is all the other stuff that NFA involves that moves my needle.

I do agree that the cloudy nature of pistol brace legality at this point makes all the above moot. I believe I read the SCOTUS granted cert on some case involving them though so I feel potentially a definitive answer is coming. If they definitively allow them, I would never SBR anything. To my shoulder a SBA3 and a Magpul OEM buttstock feel the same. I don't notice any difference. Maybe I should but in a 5.56 I certainly don't need an overbuilt stock to do the job. I certainly don't feel they are "far more comfortable". I have shot mine a bunch and they are both comfortable to the point of I don't care which one is on there as long as it is legal. lol

But yes, if they aren't legal or whatever, SBR is the choice du jour.

Just get an SBR if you want a short AR. It's worth it. If you really don't want to do that, then I guess pick a bullpup you like and go for it. The arguments against bullpups and stoppages and the trigger and all that get argued endlessly by guys who haven't used them in combat and never will. Unless it all goes fantastically sideways, and I'll allow that's always a possibility, the immediate usage of a rifle by guys like you and I will nearly always entail picking up a clean rifle with a fresh magazine and carrying that to respond to some asshole breaking into our house. The ammo you have in the gun will be what you have with you for the fight. Now I'm all for practicing reloads and shooting and moving and all that, but let's be realistic. Have a rifle, have 30-40 rounds of ammo in that rifle, have a light, sling, and optic on that rifle, and be able to shoot it well. I had an FS2000 and while it's cool to hate on that gun, I liked it. It was comfortable to shoulder and comfortable to shoot. I shot it well. How chunky or slim a gun is doesn't matter much to me, I guess. I sold it only because I was able to get almost twice what I paid for it. You could do well with a Tavor or a Hellion. Go pick something you like.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
If they ever get the pistol brace issue resolved I don't see any real benefit of an SBR in a AR. I would love to hear the argument of why a 200 dollar tax stamp and an inability to easily move from state to state with it is better than a pistol brace.

Because a stock is better than a bare buffer tube or a brace. It just is. I put a lot of rounds through AR pistols with A3 braces and I don't see them as the win you do. You can also file paperwork for whatever SBR you want to take to whatever state and it's good for a year. The argument about interstate travel is overblown. This form is one page, I can type in everything but the signature, print it out, sign it, scan it, and email it to them for each state I want to travel to. I wait a week or two, and then I'm good to take it anywhere in that state for a year. It's good for any state in the country where they're legal on a state level. The only reason to build an AR pistol for me might be driving through places where it's legal to have a loaded handgun but not legal to have a loaded rifle, and in that instance, I'm already doing as much hoop-jumping looking up all the legalities as I would be filling out and emailing a form. This stuff really isn't that hard, man.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I also want to hand everything down to my children with minimal fuss. NFA is the opposite of minimal fuss.

My wife and son are on my trust as beneficiaries. I paid HeavyD $100 for a trust that lays it all out. If I crap out when he's over 18, he just automatically owns everything. If before, then my wife leaves it in the safe for him until then because she has no interest. All I had to do was correctly spell both of their names when I bought the trust. Pretty minimal fuss if you ask me.

Look, I'm not an NFA expert, but based on everything I've learned in the last year, it doesn't look like you really understand the ins and outs. Yes, it seems daunting on the front end, but it really not as gigantic a pain in the ass as I thought it would be. Besides, the more people willing to go through this stuff, the better the numbers look for us for common usage the day this finally goes before the Supreme Court.

As a small addition to P220Smudge’s post, heavyd’s trusts will cost you $150 these days.

You just typed up multiple paragraphs that to my mind, make my point.

The govt allows you to fill out a one page form which by the way defines the geographical area where you will travel to move it across state lines. I don’t believe you can write the entire USA as an area. It’s good for one year. You have to travel with it or a copy and the tax stamp. Just to cross over state lines to your buddies farm.

A trust can be done sorta cheaply. It also involves fingerprints and headshots. It will follow your family forever. Fuck that. My AR pistol can be handed down forever and after the first time there isn’t a record. Yea, I prefer that. By a lot.

Real use. I’m not being a dick but please tell me in real terms, not engineering absolutes, how a brace has failed you under any circumstance. I will agree that in absolute strength a buttstock is stronger than a brace. I think a fixed stock on an AR is stronger than a collapsible one. All that being said, have you ever seen one fail under any use that you expect?

Just for grins I pulled my HD rifle off the rack in my office. LWRC DI. 16” rifle so it was all legal. Lol. I shouldered it multiple times. Moved around with it. Played with it. Then I put a brace on it and did the same thing. There was absolutely no way I could tell the difference. It felt like any of the half dozen different styles of buttstocks I have floating around.

If you ran a rifle course using either there would be ZERO difference in your times, scores, or accuracy. Theoretically the brace isn’t as “strong” but that a theoretical limit if in real life they don’t break. Plus you have none of those earlier paragraphs to deal with.

The only downside of the brace is their current tenuous legality or lack thereof. If, and that is a big if, it gets resolved in our favor, I don’t see a real advantage of not skipping NFA.

So far no one has yet actually stated why they are so inferior. Drsolo said “way more comfortable”. To my shoulder that isn’t true. I am willing to change my mind but so far it’s just a bunch of exhortations that “it’s much better” without any actual reasons why. Plus this might be the only thread I’ve ever read here where the NFA has been defended as easy and reasonable. Lol

Btw, I have a trust. I still prefer to use it as little as necessary.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
You just typed up multiple paragraphs that to my mind, make my point.

The SBA 3 is a piece of flimsy shit and the KAK Shockwave is a torture device. If you can't figure that out, I can't help you. And with that, I've hit my limit of time and effort for a "Pedro thread" today.

Fuck you. If you don’t want to discuss something by all means don’t discuss something. It gets tiring when you guys start acting like pussies because all of a sudden everybody doesn’t agree with every thing you say.

Feel free to point out where I was demeaning or insulting or anything. I literally asked the whys of your reasoning. The SBA3 is a flimsy piece of shit. That’s it? So it’s broken under use for you? You shoot worse with? If you don’t want to discuss it then don’t discuss it. You don’t get to pull some bullshit “I've hit my limit of time and effort for a "Pedro thread" today”.

I am discussing here and you pull out your “I’m a dick card”. Fuck off. If you have a Pedro limit put my ass on ignore and move on.

I'm 6'5" with long spaghetti arms and have yet to find a pistol brace that works comfortably for me. On the upside, because I didn't like them I got rid of all of mine long before all the recent ATF stupidity so I didn't have to deal with any of that. My buddy is 5'10", and is perfectly happy with a pistol brace...but he doesn't extend his collapsible AR stock out all the way, either. I think a lot of it has to do with body geometry and stature.

Bullpups are a no-go for me. I don't like the complexity, they feel awkward, and most of my familiarity and all of my formal training is on the AR. IMO, at least in my case, that invested time-in-platform is going to show far greater real-world benefit than the on-paper advantages that certain bullpup designs might offer.

While I'm pretty happy with my 16" guns, if I really had to have an ultra-compact 5.56 rifle, I'd probably be looking at a Sig MCX SBR. It has identical controls to an AR and the recoil system being contained in the receiver allows for a folding stock without a clunky folding adapter. They are also incredibly smooth shooting guns, and run well suppressed. On the downside, they are full of proprietary parts (same thing can be said for any bullpup, though), heavy for their size, and expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Fuck you.

Now, didn't I just say to save it for the holidays? There's no need for such a harsh reaction. You could have found a better approach, and one which would be more effective and make it less likely that I'll show up in my cop uniform.

P220 Smudge, you're not guiltless in this. You could have just ignored the man, or you could have found a more artful way to counter him.

I wasn't aware there is an ongoing problem with you two guys. If there is, both of you need to make sure I don't have to address this kind of thing with the two of you.

Keep in mind that you guys are doing this someone's thread.

quote:

Originally posted by DaBigBR:
Suck it up and get an SBR. Everything else is wrought with compromise (even braced pistols) and just doing it the hard way from the beginning is going to save you time and frustration.

If you insist, I suppose an AR pistol makes more sense because 1) it's not a bullpup and 2) it can be SBRed later.

This is the correct answer.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
I also want to hand everything down to my children with minimal fuss.

If I were particularly worried about that, I could part out my uppers and toss the short barrels in a dumpster when I am done with them, and my kids could rebuild any NFA uppers with 16" barrels.

Personally, I'm not worried about that. I hope I can shoot enough to wear all my NFA stuff out before I do. Not likely, but I'm buying them to shoot the piss out of them, not concerned particularly about passing them down. I didn't even bother to do the last two as a trust. I can send a letter to the ATF someday removing them as SBRs and the kids can use them as regular lowers, if I/they so desire. Or I can transfer them when I'm getting old.