I've been wanting a 9mm carbine for some time now. I had a Kel-Tec Sub2000 and it just wasn't left hand friendly. It was the Gen 1, I don't know if the Gen 2 is any better but regardless, I never really enjoyed the platform. I though I wanted an AR or AR9 type but I already have plenty of AR's. I would really like a B&T but I'm trying to stay under $1k. I think I've narrowed what I want to either a CZ Scorpion or a MP5 clone type.
The intent would be to purchase the pistol versions, do the brace thing and later down the road formally form 4 it. I see where Atlanic Fireams sells the OMEGA stripped receivers for around $400 and through work I can get a de-milled MP5 parts kit and keep it under $1k. I've shot the Scorpion and really liked it and I've shot MP5's enough to know and enjoy them. I already have a dozen MP5 mags, but the Scorpion mags are relatively inexpensive. I'm stuck and at a fork in the road.
Pros and cons to either? Which direction would you go and why? Any help and input would be greatly appreciated, thanks....
What's the sense in working hard if you never get to play?
If the prices were the same, I’d take a MP5 over a Scorpion all day. The delayed blowback MP5 is softer shooting than the standard blowback Scorpion. About the only plus of the Scorpion is that it’s easier to use optics since it comes with a top rail. MP5s usually don’t come with rails, and even if they do, the fixed diopter sights, including the fully hooded front sight, might interfere with some optics unless you have the optic high enough to clear the sights.
|Go ahead punk, make my day|
You can spend a little or a lot, but they are all just throwing 9MM from 3-75 yards.
I have a 9MM AR-SBR I haven't shot in years and a CZ Scorpion which I'd take every day and twice on sundays over the AR, simply because it's lighter and smaller. Sure it recoils a bit more, but it's 9MM we are talking about.
But if you have the coin for an MP5 clone and accept it's limits (no last round hold open, optics mounting issues, etc), go for it.
The Scorpion has some limits too, but overall it's cheaper, which for me seals the deal.
PSA has a 9mm AK, it looks pretty good and I think it's only $750 or so and takes scorpion mags.
Personally, I’d wait for a couple of generations to get the bugs worked out before I bought anything new from PSA.
Out of those two, scorp. For the kind of money you are talking, split the difference and get a ghm9 gen 2.
I'll go scorpion between the two. It's cheaper but isn't cheap. It has a very good aftermarket and is reliable and easy to service for cleaning. It's really everything I've wanted from a PCC. Nothing against the MP5 or B&T (I don't have any experience with the B&T but all their offerings seem very nice) but I think they'll all do the job and for the price you can land a fully tricked out scorpion compared to a base model for every other pattern and they'll all shoot about the same. YMMV Of course
I’ve been thinking about this myself. But with the scorpion you’re going to want to put a bunch of money in aftermarket parts on it so you’re going to really spend at least a grand on it before a red dot anyway.
One thing to look at is the grand power Stribog. It has a reciprocating charging handle but HB industries had a non reciprocating bolt available and they are coming out with a new gen that has a non reciprocating charging handle.
The scorpion is a good gun but it just feels cheap, the grip angle sucks, the safety on the right side digs into your hand, id just get something else or just spend the money on what you really want, you’ll be happier in the long run
|We gonna get some |
oojima in this house!
TCB all the time...
Huh. OK fixing the right side safety might be a high priority item (all of $13) but after that the gun is pretty much good to go. Yup the trigger probably needs some help in the long run, but its perfectly usable as is and the HBI kit to fix it runs a seriously problematic $9.
I have no clue how anyone would spend a grand on a scorpion that they think is needed before using it.
“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
The Scorpion is a fun, very reliable gun. Magazines are very inexpensive and lots of aftermarket support. The ones I have don't feel cheap to me but I also know they are not everybody's cup of tea. When I go to the range a lot of people like to shoot mine. I have a Ghm 9 also and like it a lot but magazines a very pricey.
I think around or slightly over a grand would get you the scorpion, dot and stock with the deleted right side.
I don't currently have a scorpion. I have a foxtrot mike (FM9 10"), Sig MPX (sbr 8"), Kriss Vector (sbr 8" in 40), BNT GHM45 (sbr' 7.5" in 45)
The MPX is nice now that it is sbr'd and down to 8 inch from its original carbine length. No real aftermarket stuff for the internals. Romeo 5, and carbon fiber lancer handguard with insight light. Mag pull foregrip. I put 350- to 400 rounds through it this weekend. For the whole life i am pushing about 5k through it. Damn fine rifle. Now though 8inch is hard to find and 1600 bucks for the copperhead version.
The Foxtrot MIKE FM9 functions flawlessly. It is a pistol. Stock trigger, bolt, etc. Sig Romeo 5, SB3 Brace. I have about 400 rounds through it total. It shoots, it hits, it ejects. Some of the parts are polymer, they really shouldn't be. For that kind of mony a 3 dollar aluminum charging handle would have been a nice start.
Kriss, it is still being SBR'd. It is a carbine in 40sw. When a carbine it was shit tons of fun to shoot. The new gen 2 trigger is a whole hell of a lot better. It will be a blast when I get it back. Nothing fancy done to it other than the cut down to 8" and Magpul foregrip. Prior to sbr, I had about 2500 rounds through it.
BnT GHM45. It was purchased a pistol, and you can see pics of min in the "so you want a sub gun" thread towards the last few pages. I have almost 2k through it. Mine likes to be a little wet when shooting. I am still using the tail hook, and pistol rails, just with bcm foregrip and a holosun 510. I added a flared magwell, and folding bolt handle. It does not like low powered ammo. Federal syntech is worthless. Anything else it eats.
What would I keep out of the four?
2nd Sig MPX
3rd Kriss Vector in 40
Distant 4th FM9
Why that order?
1st place I like the function, safety, grip angle, bolt hold open, mag release of the BNT. It was the single most intuitive placement for me of any rifle/sbr i have held. It shoots well, easily can expand to a GHM9. Build quality is amazining.
2nd place Standard ar controls. Ergonomics are good, maybe a tad better than the bnt. It is accurate. I have 1 firing pin break, a 500 round break-in ftf issues when new, sig seems to have discontinued it except for the new copperhead and PCC. making me happy i bought 3 sets of springs, firing pins, recoilbolt stops last year.
3rd place The kriss has shot well since day one. I had a few issues when i tried after 500 rounds to switch over to grease versus oil for lube. Just don't, stick with oil. The ergo's are comfortable, not as refined as the first two. when using a foregrip, the placement of the bolt hold open and release is not in the way. Mine never developed the dreaded stiff charging handle that some have complained about. I ejnoy shooting it. I believe it will make a fine suppressor host with 180 jhp rounds. I can shoot it quick, not quite as quick as the MPX, but much faster than the FM9. I also bought spares for it last year.
4th place, it functions.
What would i get next? hands down GHM9 Gen 2. It would make a great sister gun to the 45.
Of course none of those are the two firearms in question. I've now tens of thousands of rounds in an MPX and in this area its way better than either the CZ or the MP5. But its also way more expensive and like all things SIG at this point one has to wonder about support longer term. HK parts can be had for sure but unless you have a pack I can't see any reason for getting one over the CZ. If I could find a decent way to get the B&T I would but I don't have any experience in person, but its not in the same price point.
If you are in CZ territory for a budget there is nothing better than the CZ.
“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
|Res ipsa loquitur|
I have a SBR Scorpion and I have been able to shoot a fully auto MP5 a few times. I really like them both but I can’t see a semi-auto HK being the better option. With a very few minor upgrades to the trigger and safety, the CZ is cheaper, lighter, and has lots of relatively inexpensive after market support. And, you can add a binary trigger - faux but workable Class 3. Not mentioned, but a favorite, is the Beretta Cx4 Storm.
Edited to add that all three mentioned in my post work flawlessly. The Beretta is the most accurate but it is a carbine too.
I can't agree with anything you say about the Scorpion!
While there a bunch of aftermarket parts available, you don't HAVE to ... not even the right side of the ambidextrous safety (which does dig into most people's trigger finger) ... before CZ came out with the "Safety Delete" I shortened mine ... However I did buy a safety delete when it came out.
The grip angle is exactly the same as the AR ... It looks a bit more swept back, kinda like a FAL ... It isn't, if you lay an AR receiver in top of the Scorpion you can see for yourself.
Also, it DOES NOT have a reciprocating charging handle, and never has, I bought one of the first pistols, and just like the HK, it doesn't reciprocate.
And like Rhinowso said, there is nothing cheap feeling about it.
The only thing I added to mine for a long time was a stock (I SBR'd it) and a $79 Primary Arms red dot ... Then I got a suppressor adaptor for it (however new ones are threaded 1/2x28) Later I added the carbine forend for a little more up front real estate ... and lastly a binary trigger, which adds a while new factor to it
Maybe you should at least rent one before talking smack on them.
If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.
I'm really not a "kid" anymore ... but I haven't grown up yet either
|Not as lean, not as mean,|
Still a Marine
Never shot the scorpion, but heard good things.
I do own the Omega 9mm MP5 clone in pistol form. I've been extremely pleased with it, it shoots just how I recall my issued MP5 in the Corps (just in semi only).
I've had no issues with headspace or welds, any issues from the previous iterations if the company have not shown in this model.
Just throwing out my review for the model, can't offer a suggestion to your dilemma.
I shall respect you until you open your mouth, from that point on, you must earn it yourself.
|Just mobilize it|
I love my Scorpion, that’s for sure. Just shot it the other day in fact and was grinning most of the time. Sure as others have stated, the grip angle is not perfect, but it can be easily changed. The safety digs in a bit, but again easy change. Add a brace and this thing just sings. It’s polymer of course, but it’s well built and these things are tuned to eat and eat and eat. It is plenty accurate, more so than me, and as mentioned above, it has a top picatinny rail making adding a red dot easy.
The cost is a big motivator as well. Mine spec’d out with the optic and brace, AK style short safeties, and AFG, comes in about $1100, which is about just over half the price of a HK clone or B&T set up similarly. If they were the same price, maybe I’d get the GHM9 or the Omega, but the Scorpion is just that good for so much less coin.
If PSA gets the MP5 style clone to work like the Omegas though then you have a whole new ballgame potentially.
You really can’t go wrong with either (or even the GHM9), they are all great. It’s a matter of preference and budget honestly. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t want a MP5. Everyone does right?!
Anyway here is my Scorpion. I remember a few years back seeing it in a magazine ad and asking around about it before anyone even knwew what it was. I knew I had to have one and now I’m glad I do.
|Fighting the good fight|
-Slightly less felt recoil (but they're both 9mm, so it's not like recoil is much of an issue anyway)
-Old school coolness
CZ Scorpion Pros:
-Greater aftermarket support
-More ergonomic (and more customizable to fit the user)
-Accommodates optics more easily
-Last round bolt hold open
-Still get to do the HK slap, if desired
My CZ Scorpion is one of my favorite "fun guns" to take to the range, especially when letting friends shoot it. Everyone who has shot mine has loved it. And I think it's one of the best values (quality/capability/fun vs. cost) out of all the guns I've owned.
Rogue nailed it. $20 magz. Mods out the ass available. I have dual QD’s on mine, the sb brace, modded the trigger shoe and #, it’s crisp. New mag release and charging handle also. You customize to whatever you like. I even have an AK safety on mine. Easy to mount a light, afg and optic. I like mine so much for HD and travel use I’m going to dump my benelli M4. With a can on it the Skorpion becomes my go to for nearly everything except IWB. I may just buy a spare. My favorite firearm purchase in the last 10 years and maybe ever. Just so versatile. The mods available is what did it for me. Crisp trigger. Great flat trigger shoe, my preferred mag release of anything I own, extended charging handle, I could go on and on. Will mount the can soon and the little thing is going to force some sales and money back in my pocket.
What am I doing? I'm talking to an empty telephone
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