Hi all,

I need a 200-500 yard rifle. It’s the only real gap in my collection. I chose 500 yards because it seems reasonable and my rifle range goes to 500. I don’t know what I don’t know, which is why I’m coming to you folks.

I already have a BCM AR-15 in 5.56mm with an Aimpoint T-2 and Vortex Micro 3X magnifier for what I consider the rifle’s (and my skill’s) effective range of 0-200 yards. I’m looking to purchase my first rifle that can tackle the longer range, and build my marksmanship skills. Due to budget constraints (and the current supply of guns in America) I’m primarily considering bolt action rifles. This will be my first bolt action rifle, as well as my first variable-power optic.

My goals:

• Budget for rifle and optic – around $1500
  
• Capable of allowing me to solidly and routinely smack an 8” steel plate at 400-500 yards after I build my skills.
  
• A rifle/optic combo that is as light/handy/portable as possible, yet allows me to comfortably shoot perhaps 20-25 rounds per shooting session without my shoulder taking too much of a beating.
  
• Shooting around 250-350 rounds per year.
  
• A rifle setup that is flexible in that I can shoot it prone, from the bench, or various other positions. Usable on shots ranging from 50 to 500 yards.
  
• A common and proven caliber. Leaning toward 6.5 Creedmoor or .308 Win.
  
• I will use factory ammo. I do not handload.
  
• I’d like to stick to around a 20” barrel, unless there’s a good reason to go shorter or longer.
  
• I do not hunt, so this rifle will not be out with me in the wilderness.
  

I’ve been doing a lot of research. Initially I just want a solid “practical rifle” and optic that I can go shooting with and be reasonably sure I’d be happy with it as configured for a long time until I learn what I won’t know and decide how best to modify the setup. I’m thinking either Tikka or Bergara as far as brands go.

• Tikka T3X Lite – lightweight, inexpensive, upgradable, lots of calibers, box magazine
  
• Tikka T3X CTR – heavier bbl, improved accuracy when bbl gets hot, box magazine
  
• Bergara B-14 Ridge – mid-weight bbl, traditional stock, great accuracy, high quality, threaded bbl, internal magazine
  
• Bergara Wilderness Terrain – mini-chassis, adjustable cheek, heavy barrel, great accuracy, threaded bbl, box magazine
  

As far as optics, I’m not sure. I’m thinking something in the 2-10X or 3-15X range is about right, but again, I have no experience. I know quality optics are important, perhaps even more than the rifle itself. If I went in the direction of a “practical rifle” I could even see myself possibly moving down to a LPVO in the 1-8X range. (But that would very likely prevent me from achieving the 500 yard goal.)

What am I overlooking? What else should I consider? What are your recommendations on a first bolt action rifle? Thanks for the help!

Chris

I have Tikkas that I like very much and prefer 6.5 Creedmoor over 308 Winchester for the type of shooting you described. If you do not plan to carry the rifle up and down the mountains seeking goats or sheep, a heavier rifle has a couple of advantages, IMO, and not least less punishing recoil. For that same reason, a somewhat longer barrel would not be a handicap but will boost your bullet velocity which can be an advantage.

And not that it should necessarily be a long term consideration, good Creedmoor ammunition seems to be more available now than 308.

Unless you anticipate using the rifle for fast, close distance engagements, I believe you would be disappointed with an LPV, even if it goes up to 8×. I and a friend have high quality ARs chambered for 223 that we would like to use for more precision shooting than we have thus far, and both of us are seeking alternatives to the 1-6× scopes we have on them. Although probably out of your price range with the total package, I’m seriously considering another Leupold Mark 5HD 3.6-18×44 like I have on another rifle. I was looking at the Nightforce 2.5-20 until I read a rather unfavorable review of the scope.

Added: Also regarding a sight, I would never discourage anyone from buying the best he can afford, but the type of shooting you seem to describe doesn’t demand a top tier product. For a readily-visible 8" plate at 500 yards, the main thing is to be able to see it, and only the cheapest would not be up to that basic task. It also doesn’t seem like you plan, at least not initially, to participate in competitions with cryptic targets and that require dialing many large and accurate adjustments under tight time limits.

“Buy the best you can afford and cry only once” is usually the advice given about optics, but because the demands on your scope probably wouldn’t be all that great at first, I would myself focus more on the rifle’s quality at this point.

I have a 20" CTR in 6.5CM and I'm extremely pleased with it. While a 308 is not bad recoil wise, the 6.5CM is an absolute pleasure to shoot IMO - fully agree with sigfreund on that preference. No buyers remorse here - love my bone stock Tikka. I could nitpick over the stock not being as solid as some others but not enough to change it out - at least anytime soon - I thought about a chassis but it would change the character of the rifle to me and it's not a "project gun" at this point in time.

I've heard good things about the Bergara's and liked the ones I've handled but don't own one.

I like two that fit that category. I am old skool and I know others will out preform. Although for my needs I do not feel the need to be out performed.

.243
and
7mm Rem mag.

Both outstanding cartridges.

500yds might be a stretch for the .243. But with practice it can be done. 500 yds is a long shot period.

You can buy a rifle for $500 and a quality optic like a Leupold VX-5 or 6 for $1000

Make for a great set up

My vote:
Ruger American Predator .308
Vortex HS 4X16 scope.
Punches your "practical" specification fairly well.
And I have been looking at CZ and Howa bolts lately.

AR-10 platform?
M-1A?
FAL?
Or other similar .308/7.62 battle rifle platform?

A lot of stuff can be accurately hit out to 500 and beyond with the above mentioned, and there’s enough extras available out there.
You already have an AR platform, you know how it operates, you’re just going to a larger caliber.

Or strictly a bolt action?

Thanks for the replies so far. Yes, I would certainly consider the AR-10 or M14 platforms. In fact, it would likely be my first choice if a quality one wasn't so expensive. (And by quality I mean equivalent to BCM and the like.) That's why I'm primarily looking at bolt actions.

You already have a 2-500 yard rifle. An AR15 is fully capable of those ranges. Don't let anyone tell you different.

The AR10 platform is very versatile. I love my M&P10 and .308 is a fantastic round. The good thing is, you can still get ammo in the stores if you need it.

Ruger American
https://www.ruger.com/products...specSheets/6803.html

Or...

Ruger Scout
https://www.ruger.com/products...specSheets/6803.html

Both in 308. The scout has iron sights but only allows for a forward mounted long-eye relief (LER) scope. I don't know what is out there for LER scopes, as far as quality goes, so if that's an issue, go with a Ruger American.

However, your AR, with a magnified optic or simply a $1200 fixed 4x ACOG will be effective out to at least 500 yards. If you're paper punching or ringing steel, who cares if it's a varmint round or a larger caliber. An AR with a 16" barrel can easily reach out to those distances.

For 30 caliber, a 16" barrel 308 can easily reach 500 yards as well. For reduced recoil, there's 130 grain predator hollow point ammunition from American Eagle that will be easier on recoil. For 308, a 18" barrel can get you out to at least 800 yards and a 20" or 22" barrel can get you out past 1,000 yards.

The lighter the rifle, the harder the recoil. I don't recommend a M1A SOCOM-16. It will take lots of money to make it shoot well. If you do decide to go the M1A route, stick with a M1A Scout. The only thing I don't like about the M1A scouts are that the scout barrels are not available in medium weight unless you pay the $300 for a 18.5" Criterion barrel, then pay me or someone else to have it swapped and bedded.

You can also just buy a precision AR upper and change it out on your current rifle. Mo' money invested in the barrel and a quality optic. Throw in a precision trigger and you're set.

Lots of options!

Tony.

Could just grab another upper in .223 unless you are caught up on 6.5 or .308. I bang steel at my club @ 300 & 500 yards with a .223 upper. 16" barrel and a Athon Argos BTR 6-24x50. Toss on a magpul bi-pod. You could probably be good to go for around $1K. Less if you used BCG & CH from other upper.

If caught up on a dedicated rifle. I would probably go with a Tikka + optic. I'd probably go with 6.5. I eventually will probably go this route myself.

As with any activity, I recommend you keep in mind where this one might take you in the future. Depending upon the size of the target, it’s true that a garden variety AR-15 with halfway decent ammunition will be capable of hitting it at 500 yards. Although an 8 inch plate at that distance (1.6 MOA) might be a little small for such a rifle’s capabilities, we could just accept the difficulty as an additional challenge.

If, however, you envision your purchase and planned use of it as leading to mastery of a new shooting skill, i.e., precision riflery, then I recommend you continue to work toward the goal in the way you described in your original post. I say that as someone who is trying to do the same these days: attempting to become at least as proficient (or confident, anyway) with a precision rifle as I am with a defensive handgun or AR. I’m sure that our true precision rifle shooting members here will back me up when I say that that requires understanding, learning, and practicing techniques and skills beyond those used in shooting handguns or less precise rifles.

There is nothing more frustrating when shooting for a precise and accurate result than to have to think, “Was that bad shot due to me or something about the rifle and ammunition?” We are fortunate that there are factory rifle and ammunition combinations today that make it far easier to confidently answer that question than it was some 50 years ago when I bought my first rifle, and I encourage you in your endeavor.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:
I need a 200-500 yard rifle.

Many things to consider here.
You mention accurate shooting and building your skills. Cartridge selection is important, both for its ultimate accuracy and your ability to control its recoil. As target distances increase, more powerful cartridges minimize bullet drop (gravity) and drift (wind), but generally at the cost of increased recoil. For average weight rifles and common factory loads, expect the following recoil energies, in foot pounds:
3-4 foot pounds for 223 Remington
9-10 for 6 Creedmoor
12-13 for 6.5 Creedmoor
17-18 foot pounds for 308 Winchester

We can reduce recoil by adding weight to the rifle, adding a muzzle brake, or adding a suppressor. Brakes are the simplest method, and good brakes reduce recoil by at least 50%. But at a cost of noise. Figure a 10+ dB increase in noise to the shooter, meaning that the rifle is generally no longer hearing safe with both ear plugs and ear muffs. I know, due to tinitus from shooting braked rifles for a few years in competitions. Good suppressors reduce recoil by at least 40%, and cut noise by 30-ish dB. The cost of silencers vary, and of course there's the whole time delay.

You don't hunt, so kinetic energy on target doesn't matter. You just want to ring steel. 223 Remington does this, and you already have an AR15. Your current upper & optic aren't optimal for 500 yards, but you could get a second upper with a longer barrel and some decent glass. My 18" and 20" barrel AR15 uppers have been used successfully in team and individual competitions, for 12-inch (-ish) steel targets out to 650 yards. Both uppers have quality glass -- 3-15x or 4-16x.

You're probably a little new to down-range ballistics, therefore I am throwing out some bullet drop and drift numbers for possible cartridge options. I have tried to estimate muzzle velocity for comparable 20" barrels, using my own figures. I've estimated air density of 3,000 feet, which is likely your local conditions in summer.

Don't get too hung up on bullet drop. 500 yards is pretty easy for the 4 cartridges I noted above. The Creedmoors offer the flattest flight. 223 and 308 being pretty similar, but drop more. But you'll be using tables for distances, so it won't matter much.

Wind drift is the big story. In my neck of the woods, wind is pretty much a given condition == it just changes speed and direction. I think of drift for a 10mph crosswind, from either my 3 o'clock or my 9 o'clock. With the following factory loads, expect wind drifts in inches (and Minutes of Angle) at 500 yards, with a 10mph wind:
223 Hornady 75 Black -- 25 inches (4.8 MOA)
6 Creedmoor 108 ELD -- 15 inches (3.0 MOA)
6.5 Creedmoor 140 ELD -- 14 inches (2.7 MOA)
308 Win Federal GMM 175 -- 19 inches (3.7 MOA)
308 Win Hornady 168 ELD -- 18 inches (3.4 MOA)

223 works at 500 yards, but the bullet gets pushed more by the wind. The Creedmoor calibers have effectively made 308 Win obsolete in steel target competitions, due to the combination of lower recoil, flatter trajectory, and less wind drift.

All of the above 4 calibers are capable of great accuracy at 500 yards. Even my AR15s are capable of putting 5 rounds on target with vertical spreads of 3 inches or less. Lateral spreads are greater, however, due to my inability to accurately estimate wind speed.

You should consider a barrel that's longer than 20 inches. You don't hunt, so your longest carry is likely from your SUV to the shooting line. A longer barrel is free muzzle velocity, which in turn reduces wind drift.

Both the Tikka and the Bergara are good options for bolt actions. I've shot a Tikka, and it was nice. I've fondled a few Bergaras, and they seem solid. I like Bergera's stock better than Tikka's stock.

I'm with sigfreund on this one. I own an AR10. I own an FAL. Used to own an HK91 clone. I would not go this route given your intended purpose.

I also own a Tikka CTR and this would be my top choice given you can tolerate a little extra weight. And I would definitely go the 6.5CM route.

Why, IMHO, is this the best choice?

1. You will be hard pressed to find an AR10 that is as accurate as a Tikka CTR out of the box. You definitely won't find one as accurate for the price of a CTR.

2. Even if you could find a cheap, very accurate semi-auto that matches the accuracy of a Tikka, it is doubtful you will be able to shoot it as accurately. To wring every ounce of accuracy out of an AR15 you have to have very strong fundamentals. It's even harder when you move up to an AR10.

3. As sigfreund points out proficiency with a bolt action rifle is a skill worth having. There is a good chance you will find you like shooting at long ranges. Before you know it, shooting targets at 500 yards will seem pretty routine and you will want to stretch out to 800 and 1000 yards. It will be a lot tougher to get there with a semi-auto.

4. The one thing an AR10/FAL excels at is putting a lot of rounds downrange quickly. But you've already got that covered with your AR15. And as others have pointed out, in a pinch you can certainly shoot your AR15 out to 500 yards.

5. The 6.5CM round simply has better ballistics than a .308. It drops less and is less affected by the wind. As you begin shooting at longer ranges this becomes more and more of a factor. It also recoils less. Unless you will always be shooting with a spotter (unlikely) being able to see your misses is critical. Otherwise you're just guessing and wasting ammo. The softer recoil of a 6.5 makes this easier. Plus, the factory loads for 6.5 (Hornady) tend to be very good.

6. If you start to really get into this, the Tikka CTR is pretty easy to upgrade. Buy a YoDave (sp?) spring for about $10 and you can get the trigger down to less than 2 pounds. Pull the stock stock and put in something like an XLR and you will have a gun you can compete in any PRS competition with.

Hope this helps.

Do NOT ignore Savage IMO. A friend got one in 6.5 and he said that thing will knock the lights out at 300 yards (longest distance he’s shot so far). They have decent triggers and unless there’s some issues I’m unaware of, it’s a quality rifle. CZ also makes some good bolt guns. Look at a setup in 270 also. Very flat shooting round.

First thing I would do is some research on the caliber you want as mentioned earlier recoil plays a serious part in learning to shoot and starting with a lighter recoiling gun/caliber will help with the learning process. First I would look at the smaller varmint guns and calibers. I shoot prairie dogs routinely out to 500 yards with .204 and .223, and well past it with the 22-250, and .243 and pds are much smaller than your intended target. The smaller calibers require better wind management but you are trying to learn so that should not be a problem. Second, are you reloading or buying factory as price of ammo should factor into your consideration. If you are loading then your choices are much broader. If you are buying then the cheaper the ammo the more you can buy and shoot adding to your skill development. You have a AR but nothing says you can't buy a bolt gun in .223 and there are a lot of varmint guns chambered in .223. If you have your heart set on a larger caliber then the 6 CR probably sits right in the sweet spot of offering longer range and lower recoil. On a side note you might consider getting an upper in the new 6 ACR or one of the other AR caliber upgrades.

Another way to look at how effective a caliber is for a given load & bullet is to analyze bullet speed. My estimates above assume muzzle velocities in the Mach 2.3 to 2.5 range. Most modern pointy bullets fly well down to transonic speeds, which is often considered to be around Mach 1.25 to 1.30. Estimated bullet speeds at 500 yards:
223 Hornady 75 Black -- Mach 1.54
6 Creedmoor 108 ELD -- Mach 1.85
6.5 Creedmoor 140 ELD -- Mach 1.88
308 Win Federal GMM 175 -- Mach 1.65
308 Win Hornady 168 ELD -- Mach 1.72

There is still some life in the the lowly .223 at 500 yards, and a good bullet will still hold consistent vertical variation.

For example, this past weekend while sorting through a new suppressor that increased muzzle velocity and changed point of impact on all my ammo. AR15 with 20" Krieger barrel, fishtailing headwinds of 10+ mph, 492 yards, factory Hornady 73 ELD, full size IPSC steel. 5 rounds at each red dot -- upper group with a vertical spread of 2-1/4", lower group with a vertical spread of 1-3/4".



From a few years ago, same AR15, 762 yards, Hornady 73, on a 20" round plate. Landed 7 of 8 shots, aiming for center of plate -- one shot landed left of the target in the dirt. Looks like the vertical variation was about 5.5". IIRC winds of 10+ mph from my right. At my altitude, this bullet was still probably flying along around Mach 1.4.

With your ar15 you already have a 300-500 yard rifle. If anything get another AR and put a scope on it, if you want to upgrade in firepower then I’d get an AR-10

The 223 will already fill your needs.

Heavier bullet in a longer upper will do what you want.

If you are looking for an excuse to get another caliber, then might I suggest a 243. Low recoil, many choices of bullet weight, will go the distance to 1000 yds. Easy to reload and you can buy factory ammo almost anywhere.. although maybe not now due to circumstances.

quote:

Originally posted by houndawg:
You already have a 2-500 yard rifle. An AR15 is fully capable of those ranges. Don't let anyone tell you different.

Yep!