Being able to see a man sized target at 300 meters and make accurate hits is not going to happen for me with iron sights.
I have a hard enough time as it is at 100 yards.

It sure would have saved me a bunch of money if I could see as well as I could 20 years ago.

I never used or thought about using additional optics till recently.
I have a 3-9 on an old 30-06 that was my only scope for decades.

Now if I want to pop jugs at 200 yards I need some magnification or I'm just making noise.

^^ yup. I can’t see shit, my eyes are not getting any better. I just saw that Eotech has a 5x multiplier out. That might be the ticket for the EXPS3 I have already.

quote:

Originally posted by dry-fly:
I can’t see shit, my eyes are not getting any better.

Same here, and a recent vision checkup confirmed this. Good low-power and mid-power scopes have many advantages. They don't need to be at their highest power. They aren't only for long-distance shooting. Many gun owners state their optics preferences -- I'll let my targets do the most of the talking.

Here are targets from a Wilson 9mm 8" barrel SBR, with a Vortex Viper 1-4x. This scope is the least expensive and has lowest power of my ARs. It's primarily a training rifle for carbine competitions. Carbine matches include up to 10 targets per stage, with target distances from 5 to 450-ish yards. Stages involve shooting on the move, improvised & unstable shooting positions, and tight time limits. Accuracy is paramount.

Stretching out the SBR, this is 10 shots on a 12" plate at 200 yards, using 115 FMJ from S&B. 2.5" vertical dispersion, 3.5" horizontal dispersion, a breeze from the left. There are more than a few .223 semi-auto rifles that only wish they could produce such groups.


LPVO also work up close. From the Sigforum "postal match", I jumped in when carbines were added to pistols. The original challenge was one shot on a 3" by 5" card from each distance, at distances of 3-5-7-10-15-20-25 yards, carbine from a high ready,. Timed with a shot timer, if possible. In subsequent weeks I upped the challenge by doing controlled pairs and controlled triples from each distance, again timed. Up front, I'm not the fastest shooter, and I was more interested in hitting the 3x5 index cards than pure speed.

14/14 for the pairs on the right, 20/21 hits on the index card for the triples on the left.


Average times for my pairs were 1.01 seconds for the first shot, then .54 seconds for the second shot. 1.55 seconds total.
Average times for my triples were .93 seconds for the first shot, then .53 seconds for the second, then .51 seconds for the third. 1.98 seconds total.
LPVOs work for multiple distances, and multiple types of shooting.

I also have optics on ARs that are 1-8x and 2-10x. These scopes work very well, too.

^ impressive fritz, thanks for the info.

You say self defense and I say aimpoint. Now if your eyes don't let that work, go further afield.
I have many (if not most) of the available options and the fastest most reliable get hits answer at what are likely self defense distances is a red dot. And if you are going to have a red dot get an aimpoint. Fritz is my go to guy on many things, but nobody make 450y or ever 200y self defense shots (at least until the world melts down completely). I have what I think are the best of the LVPO options and yup they can work as a red dot, but yup they are slower, the eye box is less forgiving, they are more problematic in operation and cost. But OK if that's what you like have at it.

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
You say self defense and I say aimpoint. Now if your eyes don't let that work, go further afield.
I have many (if not most) of the available options and the fastest most reliable get hits answer at what are likely self defense distances is a red dot. And if you are going to have a red dot get an aimpoint. Fritz is my go to guy on many things, but nobody make 450y or ever 200y self defense shots (at least until the world melts down completely). I have what I think are the best of the LVPO options and yup they can work as a red dot, but yup they are slower, the eye box is less forgiving, they are more problematic in operation and cost. But OK if that's what you like have at it.

Agree with red dot for self defense.

Jury still out if I get a LVPO. I've tried a few different LVPO's on my SBR's. NF ATACR 1-8, Kahles K16I and the sell a kidney to buy S&B 1-8 CC. Messed with a Elcan 1 or 4 and the Vortex 1-10 on others AR's. I've timed myself with a red dot countless times, I know what I can do. I've had the S&B on loan from a buddy for 3 weeks, have 300rds through it. I can not shoot it at fast at 1X as I can with a red dot. As far as shooting any of the LVPO's at 400-450yds, sure I can hit a 10" steel plate. BUT, when I miss the parallax is so far off I ain't picking up misses in grass, against trees and bushes.... Sure I can see misses if shooting against a berm. Eye boxes gets tight on max 8-10 magnification where I'd benefit from a Magpul PRS type stock with it's adjustable get it right for me cheek hieght. Of the LVPO's I've messed with, cost no object would buy the S&B 1-8 CC, excellent tree reticle. 2nd the Kahles K16I. Would like to try a Minox ZP8 1-8 as it changes parallax depending on magnification, 1-2.5X 50 meter parallax free, 2.5-8X 200 meter parallax free. Their tree reticle looks good on paper.

Did some A-B'ing with these two. Obviously not a fair $$$ comparison! I could easily see a bullet hole on creme colored paper with the S&B set 4X at 100yds, could not see it with the Elcan. So missing at 400yds with the Elcan, most likely picking up that miss will be even tougher. Not a fan of BDC reticles, especially w/o a wind tree. Scope we also had that day, NF NXS 2.5-10 with a Delta Point red dot mounted on a 45 degree offset. It's a better scope for further distances with it's adjustable parallax, reasonable/good enough clarity at 5yds at 2.5X.

I also agree with hrcjon, concerning red dots for what we refer to as self defense in a mostly civil society.

LVPOs come into the discussion in the hunting or "combat" venue.

Another note on red dots with magnifiers is the clarity loss. It's a cool, modular setup, but the image quality through four pieces of glass is not great, when compared to an LVPO. Making everything bigger doesn't help much, if it isn't clear.

I am switching away from a 1-6x scope to a red dot on my AR. I thought it would cool having the ACSS reticle but in reality, it is not as intuitive and quick as a red dot.

Primary arms 1 x prism gen 2 just put one on my ar and love it, they also make a 3x magnifier, awesome reviews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2VMG87P8sk

^^ Thanks for that link, I’ve looked at that optic quite a bit. I’m starting (trying) to take more of a hardline against Chinese made stuff when I can. I does check off alit of the boxes though.