Dipping into the backlog. Once I had resigned myself to SBRing some stuff, the real utility of SBR meant seeing what a lightweight modern carbine could be. One with all the necessities, with as little fancy bullshit as possible. Without spending top dollar, but without cheaping out. No titanium, no carbon fiber, no extras.

Of course, what an essential carbine to me is, might not be your idea. But if we're talking a rifle that is as useful as possible - it should have the following features:

A sling
A white light
A barrel long enough to be lethal and useful at range
An optic
Back up irons
Light Weight

Some of these things are controversial now, apparently. Including my chosen caliber, good ole 5.56. That's fine, I have heavy rifles in larger calibers too. I might do an upper in .300blk to see what the fuss is about, but no rush. The idea was an update of this:



Everybody loves these, they sure are fun at the range. The downside? It's 1/12, and a collectable so I'm not going to play dressup with it. So I took one of my other rifles, and went to see what Brownells had in stock, and perhaps on sale.



This wasn't cheap, but wasn't outrageous either. Most of the weight savings comes from the 10" pencil barrel, I used a lightened carrier that is a Brownells product, and the lightweight forend from Aero. The magpul backups are light, the flashlight was the lightest I could find that wasn't crazy expensive. One out of stock item I got direct was a low profile adjustable gas block, that you can adjust from the front. That's only necessary because of the lightened carrier. The Primary Arms optic is lightweight and useful, I added the throw lever.

Good stuff.

Ian McCollum from Forgotten Weapons embarked on a similar journey a few years ago, looking to make a basic, lightweight, all-around AR15 (albeit not a SBR), and ended up with the "What Would Stoner Do" Carbine, which was then licensed and produced by KE Arms and distributed through Brownells.

It ended up at right around 5 pounds, with most of the weight savings coming from stuff like a polymer lower with a pencil barrel and carbon fiber handguard, but they also eliminated extraneous stuff like the forward assist to save further ounces.

The WWSD carbine is interesting. Don't mind the one piece lower, the handguard... eh. The forward assist missing doesn't bug me.
I think it's still in court because of the patent troll.

A full accounting of the above rifle, some stuff here is different, I just pulled this of Brownells, in stock right now.
For instance, I used a Larue MBT. This is the entire rifle.

Pencil Barrel 5.56mm NATO 10.5 1-8 Carbine-Length Black $146.99
M16 Lightweight Bolt Carrier Group Nickel Boron $129.99
AR-15 CTR Stock Collapsible Mil-Spec BLK $61.70
AR-15 Mil-Spec Buffer Tube 6 Position $39.99
Carbine XP Recoil Spring, only $18.99
AR-15 Heavy Carbine Buffer Assembly $30.07
Atlas S-One Handguard Free Float Aluminum 9" Black $144.49
1.5" Flip-Up MBUS Gen 2 Front Sight Polymer Black $37.95
AR-15 Flip-Up MBUS Gen 2 Tactical Rear Sight Black $55.05
AR-15 Gas Tube Stainless Steel Carbine $10.99
AR-15 Enhanced Ultimate Dust Cover Standard FDE $16.99
Lightweight Low Profile Forward Assist Black $19.99
Strike Latchless Charging Handle Black $36.99
AR-15 Adjustable Gas Block .625" Stainless Steel $89.99
NiB-X~ Upper Receiver, Black $167.49
AR-15 A2 3-Prong Flash Hider 1/2-28 $47.50
Shim Kit for 1/2" Diameter Muzzles $8.99
AR-15 Castle Nut $10.99
AR-15 End Plate Steel Black $19.00
M-Lok QD Sling Socket, Aluminum $19.79
MS4 Multi Mission Sling, Gray $61.70
AR-15 Trigger Guard Assembly $7.99
B-GC GEISSELE COMPETITION TRIGGER $149.99
EPC Lower Parts Kit Minus FCG/Grip $21.24
AR-15 Pistol Grip Black $5.99
AR-15 Gen 2 Stripped Lower Receiver, Black $93.49

Primary Arms SLx MD-25 $150
American Defense AD-B2 STD $112
INFORCE WML Gen2 $120

-Passport Photos $30
-2 fingerprint cards $20
-Form 1 sent registered mail $230

Shipping is prolly free.. With tax - $2263

Standout products:
https://www.brownells.com/gun-...12-28/?sku=100044398
https://www.brownells.com/gun-...arrels?sku=100026109
https://www.brownells.com/gun-...-solid?sku=100020570
https://www.brownells.com/gun-...m-lok/?sku=100025696
https://www.brownells.com/gun-...-spec/?sku=100002946
https://www.brownells.com/gun-...ndard/?sku=100015724
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00M...dt_b_product_details

I got loads of this stuff on sale, had other bits. The nice thing about ARs and all the makers and suppliers is that you can just chip away at it.

Interesting and thought provoking project. Thanks for posting.

Mine is akin of the top pix in the op. It just looks right. Mine is a non removable carry handle so no sight or buis needed. Simple, lightweight 6lbs+-.
No need to sbr. Just about perfect imho. As it should be too.

I do like how that carbine turned out, Arc.

Rogue, thanks for posting what Ian McCollum came up with. Incidentally, I embarked on the same project and have at least got the upper somewhat figured out. I went with an upper that had a forward assist because that's what was available to me, but may eventually swap it out for one that does not. I also went with a 16" pencil barrel and a carbon fiber handguard, but mine is a PRI octagonal a friend bought for a project, didn't use, and gave me a great deal on. Don't have the lower together yet, and the plan was to go with a standard lower, but now I'm curious what else is out there. That KE looks tempting, especially for the price, but I have a Reptilia RECC-E I snagged as soon as they were available. It's like UBR but half the weight of the Gen 1 I had on my first carbine. I'm under no illusions that it will be anywhere as tough.

I need to weigh it, but with a 3-10 Weaver in an Aero lightweight offset mount and an MFT Battlelink stock, it's very light, and balances just forward of the receiver.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Mine is akin of the top pix in the op. It just looks right. Mine is a non removable carry handle so no sight or buis needed. Simple, lightweight 6lbs+-.
No need to sbr. Just about perfect imho. As it should be too.

I certainly appreciate the past, but the rifle I built is at 5lbs with a light and an optic. Weight is huge. Frankly, either the olde timey carbine or this project are preferable to what some people thoughtlessly build. There is some irony to people poo-pooing my love of the too-heavy outdated M14, only to turn ARs into 8lb+ rifles. I'm sure some are the same weight as an FAL or M14.

It's fun and easy to load up an AR with gack like it's your Waffle House hash browns. A lot to be said for simple. What I came up with I think is the baseline for "modern."

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Rogue, thanks for posting what Ian McCollum came up with. Incidentally, I embarked on the same project and have at least got the upper somewhat figured out. I went with an upper that had a forward assist because that's what was available to me, but may eventually swap it out for one that does not. I also went with a 16" pencil barrel and a carbon fiber handguard, but mine is a PRI octagonal a friend bought for a project, didn't use, and gave me a great deal on. Don't have the lower together yet, and the plan was to go with a standard lower, but now I'm curious what else is out there. That KE looks tempting, especially for the price, but I have a Reptilia RECC-E I snagged as soon as they were available. It's like UBR but half the weight of the Gen 1 I had on my first carbine. I'm under no illusions that it will be anywhere as tough.

I need to weigh it, but with a 3-10 Weaver in an Aero lightweight offset mount and an MFT Battlelink stock, it's very light, and balances just forward of the receiver.

Glass is heavy. I looked at LPVOs and other stuff. It should always be a thought process on use and distance, priorities. I think people too often try to build a "do all" AR, and end up with a heavy, average rifle. Carbon fiber I'll remain skeptical of, but how rugged is a lot of this stuff?.. I don't think we'll be pounding nails with any of it. Unless you buy an Elcan.

Start with your intended roll, be honest about it. What range will you really be engaging, etc. Particularly with 5.56, why bother building something "long range." We all know it's like getting hit by a horse fly past 500yds. Sticking to a budget has merit, unless it handicaps your purpose somehow. But I think there are reasonable prices out there. As I said earlier, I saved a lot by just waiting for sales. 30-50% sure adds up.

Alternatively, you could just go find the most badass sounding shit:

AR-15 Gen 2 The Jack Lower Receiver Black $295.99
Shim Kit for 1/2" Diameter Muzzles $8.99
MS4 Multi Mission Sling, Gray $61.70
EPC Lower Parts Kit Minus FCG/Grip $21.24
223 Wylde 10.5" 1-7 Twist Pistol Length Adj Gas Block CF BBL $849.99
M16 Bolt Carrier Group Titanium $389.99
AR-15 Hydra, Black $85.00
AR-15/HK416 Carbine Buffer Tube $69.99
AR-15 Qd Endplate & Castle Nut Combo Ti Blk $84.39
AR-15 Carbine Stock Recoil Buffer $138.99
Tuned Buffer Spring, Carbine $19.99
AR-15 Precision Stock Collapsible Black $218.50
AR15 Peak 02 FLFS $150
AR-15 Flip-Up Standard Backup Iron Rear Sight Black $140.99
Evolution QD Sling Mount Kit $24.46
Geissele SSA-E $350
Mk 8 15" M-LOK Super Modular Rail, BLK $350
Lantac LLC - AR Dragon Keymount Muzzle Brake $130
Warne AR-15/M16 R.A.M.P. TACTICAL MOUNT $178
NightForce NX8 1-8x24 F1 $1750

Shipping better be free With tax $5553

Now, this was only what was in stock, there was more expensive and exotic shit out of stock. Does cost make something good? Sometimes. Buying the cheapest thing may not be a good idea either. Brownells doesn't stock NightForce, that's off Amazon.

Front sight posts and carry handles are an unnecessary relic of the past. So says WWSD and Gun Jesus. Kids today eschew backup irons. I still consider them cheap insurance on a rifle you intend to take seriously. Does a lot of glass, magnifiers, a laser etc. belong on a lightweight carbine? I'd say no. It might belong on a rifle meant for a static position. If you're trying to move somewhere fast, or simply carry it around all day, weight first, size second, then on down the line.

The route to spending as little as possible? The simplest is buying someones prebuilt upper/lower and complete rifle.. right?

You should absolutely be doing a suppressor, if your state allows it. If you can SBR and you haven't....

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder:
Glass is heavy. I looked at LPVOs and other stuff. It should always be a thought process on use and distance, priorities. I think people too often try to build a "do all" AR, and end up with a heavy, average rifle.

Yeah, definitely. The scope, I'm thinking I'll wanna trade for an LPVO of some stripe, or maybe even a *gasp* fixed low power optic of some sort. I dunno. I don't want a lot of weight, but I want some magnification. I wanted something lightweight (didn't opt for the ultralight stuff because I'm not convinced of durability) that I could reasonably engage out to 300 yards or so. It's a pencil barrel and the idea isn't to be cranking off a bunch of rounds, just a light DMR/SPR type rifle I could carry all day.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder:
Carbon fiber I'll remain skeptical of, but how rugged is a lot of this stuff?.. I don't think we'll be pounding nails with any of it. Unless you buy an Elcan.

Last year, I took a composites class taught by a guy who teaches carbon fiber layup for Boeing. When I say "for Boeing," I mean he's their guy who flies around the world for their various needs for teaching, process development and controls, etc. He's their top guy. If the top carbon fiber guy for Boeing says that carbon fiber is directionally the strongest thing on the planet for it's weight, I'll believe it. That's why it's weaved in specific directions with multiple plys. I have a strip of plain carbon fiber strands from that class. You can pull on it until it cuts through your hands and it won't break. Loop it once and tug and it'll snap with little effort because the strength is directional and you've just changed all the vectors. Neat stuff. He did say it's application-specific, though, so I doubt he'd advocate for using anything carbon fiber as a hammer because steel has more mass and would deform less. For a handguard? Plenty strong enough, I think.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder:
Alternatively, you could just go find the most badass sounding shit:

Yeah. That's not gonna happen.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
or maybe even a *gasp* fixed low power optic of some sort. I dunno. I don't want a lot of weight, but I want some magnification. I wanted something lightweight (didn't opt for the ultralight stuff because I'm not convinced of durability) that I could reasonably engage out to 300 yards or so.

Did someone say lightweight optic with magnification for <300 yard use? This 3x SLx Microprism is about the same size as an Aimpoint Micro, weighs less than 8 ounces, and has holdovers out to 600 yards:

https://www.primaryarms.com/pr...556-308-reticle-yard

And they're about to release a new 5x version of this SLx Microprism that's only about 8.5 ounces.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Last year, I took a composites class taught by a guy who teaches carbon fiber layup for Boeing. When I say "for Boeing," I mean he's their guy who flies around the world for their various needs for teaching, process development and controls, etc. He's their top guy. If the top carbon fiber guy for Boeing says that carbon fiber is directionally the strongest thing on the planet for it's weight, I'll believe it. That's why it's weaved in specific directions with multiple plys. I have a strip of plain carbon fiber strands from that class. You can pull on it until it cuts through your hands and it won't break. Loop it once and tug and it'll snap with little effort because the strength is directional and you've just changed all the vectors. Neat stuff. He did say it's application-specific, though, so I doubt he'd advocate for using anything carbon fiber as a hammer because steel has more mass and would deform less. For a handguard? Plenty strong enough, I think.

You've outlined the reason I'm skeptical of carbon fiber in handguards. The strength in specific directions part. Designing aircraft and all kinds of things, I get it. Modern handguards need to hold a bunch of stuff and be rigid, but also need to be somewhat robust. Here is where I think carbon fiber falls off compared to AL. AL suffers from some of the same problem to a degree, and we use it for the same reason. Light, rigid, strong. But it's also going to break before it bends, but to a less extent than carbon fiber. Maybe at some point the cost of carbon fiber comes down, then you just have the hits from directions its not set up for, and edge strength issues. Nothing is perfect, if cost isn't an issue I think I'd go Titanium first. You can find various torture tests online, as creators fumble for new content. Someone should abuse a bunch of handguards.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Did someone say lightweight optic with magnification for <300 yard use? This 3x SLx Microprism is about the same size as an Aimpoint Micro, weighs less than 8 ounces, and has holdovers out to 600 yards:

https://www.primaryarms.com/pr...556-308-reticle-yard

Was going to suggest one of these. Got one, seems pretty great for the money. Is it an ACOG? No. Does it need to be?

Yeah, I had initially been thinking I should grab one of those. I've also never messed with an LPVO, but for the weight savings, the PA prism seems to be a pretty good choice.

Removed for too harsh.

By Mac do you mean TFBtv?

We'd probably need to be better friends with him to call him an asshole and expect him to do anything. Do any creators do individual component reviews now? Sort of, but not of handguards and such that I've seen. When there are some sort of review and torture test... eh. Don't abuse it...

Can you drop it 6ft repeatedly? Can you close your trunk on it? Can you hit someone a few times? Can someone open the door against it after you let it sitting in the corner?

Someone pay me and I'll start a channel. Can your rifle survive your wife sitting on it? Get thinner wife, comrade!

Guys, I'll say it anytime, gun laws are dumb. But some paperwork and now I have 10" ARs, the 7" DOE, and the Mp5 clone.... Make all the excused for the 16" barrels... be paranoid about pistol braces...

File that Form 1. Is it the government registering and tracking us all? SURE!.. I have 4 now. Everybody pile on and crush them with the weight of their own bureaucracy.

I will never. Never. Commit a murder or mass shooting. Each of us interact daily with people who own all kinds of guns, suppressors, machineguns, SBRs, and on and on.

How many lawful gun owners, are murderers or mass murderers as if there need be a distinction? When I lived in CT and owned suppressors those were back in 90 days. All of my SBRs were back in about 30.

The pistol brace thing is bullshit, but pistol braces suck. Form 1 SBR that shit and put a proper stock on it. Get that tax stamp. Registration is bad, because they can come knocking? Maybe if they knew how many doors the math would change?

Make sure you build the rifle you want to use, and use the rifle you build. As someone with a lot of experience with ARs, not in combat but in tepid classes, a 10" AR is a revelation. If you look at the recoil springs and buffers, how these rifles were designed should be obvious.

They make it as onerous as possible, don't be dissuaded by paperwork. Cost and complexity are the original "back door bans."

Yeah, too much. Not TVBTV, I like those guys. I especially like Hop's videos. James, I was kinda pissed at for all of fifteen minutes because he actually got me with his 1903 troll. No, I was talking about a certain VP9 review way back in the day. The guy bounced it off rocks, trees, and steel targets and then "hur hurr, it broke!" It was kind of stupid and supposedly he did it because he was butt hurt that HK wouldn't sponsor his channel. Whatever.

Yes, the paperwork thing is the back door ban. I need to get off my ass and turn in a whole bunch of Form 1's. Need to get the ball rolling on some cans, too. I've got a number of them I can do the amnesty thing with, and I know everyone was all "fed boi" this and that, but people who turned that shit in back in February are walking around with no-engrave SBR's already. Really no different than filing the paperwork and handing them the money in the long run, you've registered an SBR.

You say you did all yours snail mail?

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:
Yes, the paperwork thing is the back door ban. I need to get off my ass and turn in a whole bunch of Form 1's. Need to get the ball rolling on some cans, too. I've got a number of them I can do the amnesty thing with, and I know everyone was all "fed boi" this and that, but people who turned that shit in back in February are walking around with no-engrave SBR's already. Really no different than filing the paperwork and handing them the money in the long run, you've registered an SBR.

You say you did all yours snail mail?

I tried repeatedly to E-file, but it kept dumping info. This sort of thing is pretty O-K hard copy wise really."No engrave sbrs"... sure let them worry about that. The pistol brace thing is best either not filed, or filed as an SBR. Why would you file for the fucking half assed bullshit that is a "pistol brace." Either throw that shit in a river, or register an SBR and put a useful stock on it.

I know it's dumb that they said it was ok, but now it's now.. but none of you retards saw this coming? Fuck you. I can say that because I'm not staff here anymore. Fuck you if you hitched your wagon to "pistol braces." You're a moron. Fight me.

Anyhoo...I’ve always liked the concept of lightweight compact rifles. I’ve got a couple of LW ARs, trapper style Lever guns, Scout rifles... Looking at something along the lines of aBrowning micro medallion bolt gun that can reach out further but still compact.

Just venting a bit about all the gun control bullshit happening these days. We've got grabbers at the state and federal level, working to pass laws that they can clearly see are unconstitutional due to SC decisions, but they'll waste taxpayers time and money anyway.

With the pistol brace thing, the folks who are really screwed are those in states that don't allow SBRs. Now these people are in a limbo, and that is beyond unfair. Lawful gun owners simply shouldn't have to put up with it. Now you have to wonder whether "doing the right thing" and amnesty filing will get you prosecuted in some way? No one deserves to be a criminal overnight just because of capricious use of authority.

Why are suppressors illegal in my state? Why, because some dipshit lawmakers are scared of them and are "keeping them off the streets." It's horseshit. There are loads of people collecting machineguns and other stuff..

Meanwhile, you can look at people waiving "switches" around on tiktok.... Does the ATF do anything about that? It sure doesn't seem like it.

SBRs should be able to be possessed by all lawful people. I don't really see them being removed from the NFA, but pistol braces, bump stocks and other things should not be able to be administratively added. Because.... they can be administratively banned and here we are. Where would we be if the ATF solely focused on illegal activity? Aside from checking paperwork and such?

I'm absolutely fed up with the "constitutional scholars" focused on what a militia is, when white kids die in a "mass shooting." Meanwhile the real driver of "gun violence" remains untouched. People who pass laws about firearms know damn well in 2023 that they're doing it to limit the rights of gun owners, not reduce crime or violence. We all have access to the statistics from the FBI and CDC now.

Dumb shit like "You're more likely to die by a firearm when there is one in the house" has to go. The constant use of suicides, and the manipulation of the age of "children" has to go. The refusal to do anything serious regarding mental health, damn well affects "gun violence" but it's also a fundamental problem with the healthcare in this country.

How much progress could we make, with a concerted effort in reducing suicides, and making sure people with mental health issues get the help they need? Even something as simple as letting everyone know that they aren't alone and can always find someone to talk to would have a massive effect.. or maybe we could just try?

In the course of my work I see construction companies, bars, restaurants, hotels and more that are absolutely scrambling to find workers. I hear that younger generations are dating less, I see the shit online about "boss bitches." I look at kids being fed anti-white and lgbt rhetoric in schools...

The very same government that kneels on your throat that you want to defund and disarm its police... That government is the one you'll use to take the guns away from the people who aren't perpetrating violence? All so we can each pick our gender or something? People who support "BLM" and "ANTIFA" sure are confused about who the enemy is. Their entitlement is peak because they don't know what real violence is. They're LARPing social "justice." They'll happily burn local businesses and call it "speech," but breath an opinion they don't like, and that is "violence." College campuses are re-segregating dorms? All this, and we still have to deal with "no one needs an AR-15" and "I've got mine" amongst the gun community. All guns are "weapons of war" you assholes.

I've always tried to do the right thing. Responsible gun owners do, we understand that word. Responsibility. The world right now seems to be populated by very vocal, very soft and privileged individuals, who are so safe that the are worried about their feelings being hurt, and want society and the government to make sure the world is a "safe space." Their safety isn't their responsibility. The government will do it. That's a government with too much power, some very wise men a few hundred years ago wrote a very special document. It secures natural rights for the people, away from the government.

At no time should a government have the power to grant rights, because then they can be removed as that government gathers power and heads toward dictatorship. Both "parties" keep saying the other is destroying the country or "our democracy," when really what we have is a political elite only worried about its own wealth and power.

What was I talking about? Oh right. Lightweight carbines are great, you should own one.

quote:

Start with your intended roll, be honest about it.

quote:

If you're trying to move somewhere fast, or simply carry it around all day, weight first, size second, then on down the line.

Is that your intended role for this lightweight project? To move fast and/or be able to carry it all day? What kind of targets might be engaged, and under what circumstances? I don't have a gun like the one you built, and the low weight is appealing. I am curious as to more details of your application of the rifle.

No need to quote me Arc as I am not talking to you directly. Just making a comment. I have an SBR. My preference is a very minimalistic 16" pencel barrel 6lbish rifle. To me it feels perfectly balanced, points well, etc.
It may not be right for anyone else. But is pretty close to perfect for me. Kind of like the pig 556 sbr

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
Is that your intended role for this lightweight project? To move fast and/or be able to carry it all day? What kind of targets might be engaged, and under what circumstances? I don't have a gun like the one you built, and the low weight is appealing. I am curious as to more details of your application of the rifle.

I think the same thing I'm doing could be done with a 16" barrel and no tax stamp, my role for the rifle is actually what I'd term "urban home defense." The lightweight portion is somewhat of an experiment, but I really wanted a rifle that was light and compact just for the flexibility that affords. The likelihood of shooting anything past 300yds is slim to none, most if anything is 100yds or less.

I have a lot of shooting to do to wring it out, and the one "weak point" of trying to make a very light rifle is the adjustable gas that I've mentioned. That just adds a point of failure. So I'll not really trust it for a while. I tried to chose a design that would be unlikely to shoot loose and be relatively easy to adjust.

I did find this product, I might do an upper with it: https://www.riflespeed.com/RIF...ntrols-625_p_41.html

You could just go regular gas with the lightened carrier, but you get increased recoil impulse and parts fatigue. The light and short means any family member can use it, and inside a building the size matters. Inside a building it will be even louder than an already loud short barrel is... Too bad about no suppressors here.

Taking a crack at modernizing the CAR-15 is a piece. It also for me goes all the way back to when I first shot an M1 Carbine. The DOE project also got me thinking. I also hadn't put a rifle together in a long time by selecting components, and I wanted to see what all this new and fangled stuff could do. I think that nobody really has to take it as far as I did, you can probably just go:

https://palmettostatearmory.co...-mbus-sight-set.html

And

https://palmettostatearmory.co...zine-5165500387.html

And be done. That's a pretty solid rifle for short money. America, fuck yeah. You can spend a lot of money, or a little, and it's hard to build a shitty rifle. That's pretty cool.