quote:

Originally posted by saigonsmuggler:
Maybe the plastic rail for optics would not last under military use?

Better let them know so they can ditch all the pmags

Plastics have come a loooong way

One of the best SMGs has been produced for decades--the HK MP5. They don't have to look far, just use that one.

CZ EVO A1 for the win. Can’t think of anything off hand that is more durable, reliable, and cost effective. It’s also a proven design already in Europe.

quote:

Originally posted by kaschi:
One of the best SMGs has been produced for decades--the HK MP5. They don't have to look far, just use that one.

They did. They stopped. They're not buying more.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Decker:

quote:

Originally posted by kaschi:
One of the best SMGs has been produced for decades--the HK MP5. They don't have to look far, just use that one.

They did. They stopped. They're not buying more.

Because the HKs are so horrible and the new wiz-bang guns are so much better?

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Decker:

quote:

Originally posted by kaschi:
One of the best SMGs has been produced for decades--the HK MP5. They don't have to look far, just use that one.

They did. They stopped. They're not buying more.

Because the HKs are so horrible and the new wiz-bang guns are so much better?

Because the use of higher powered SBRs has relegated SMGs to the uber niche' market, and even then most think they are pretty much obsolete.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Decker:

quote:

Originally posted by kaschi:
One of the best SMGs has been produced for decades--the HK MP5. They don't have to look far, just use that one.

They did. They stopped. They're not buying more.

Because the HKs are so horrible and the new wiz-bang guns are so much better?

Because the use of higher powered SBRs has relegated SMGs to the uber niche' market, and even then most think they are pretty much obsolete.

In that case why is there a competition for a 9mm specific sub gun? That’s what this topic is about.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Decker:

quote:

Originally posted by kaschi:
One of the best SMGs has been produced for decades--the HK MP5. They don't have to look far, just use that one.

They did. They stopped. They're not buying more.

Because the HKs are so horrible and the new wiz-bang guns are so much better?

Because the use of higher powered SBRs has relegated SMGs to the uber niche' market, and even then most think they are pretty much obsolete.

In that case why is there a competition for a 9mm specific sub gun? That’s what this topic is about.

What else would they spend the money on?

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
5 years of money and evaluation.
Nothing adopted or bought.
Waste of time and money.
Because the use of higher powered SBRs has relegated SMGs to the uber niche' market, and even then most think they are pretty much obsolete.

+4

I've never seen anything CZ made that has the durability that the military needs. It's better than soviet garbage but still not first world military ready.

Pmags are best mags!

If they are going to select something it should be a size difference that negates using a micro/pdw carbine (apc223/scar pdw ect)... MP5k or smaller with good enough wound ballistics to be effective to 100+ yards.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwill104:
In that case why is there a competition for a 9mm specific sub gun? That’s what this topic is about.

Because life is cyclical and Generals need jobs after they retire. What better way for an acquisitions bubba to make friends than hold a SMG competition???

And sure, Subguns are sweet (looking). Some units actually have a need for them, most don't. And those tankers in Fury had grease guns and were mowing down the Germans.

But in the end, a centerfire rifle cartridge is superior to a SMG firing a pistol round. Sure I'd rather have an SMG than only a pistol and maybe that's what they are going for. But if you are in a uniform, on duty, you're better off with an SBR than a SMG, by FAR. And you have no excuse not to have a SBR or an M4.

And you hardly need a competition for the handful of PST guys who need it. Just open purchase PS90s or MPXs or whatever and be done with it. They shouldn't need more than a couple thousand (semi-legitimate).

quote:

Originally posted by mercedes560:
I've never seen anything CZ made that has the durability that the military needs. It's better than soviet garbage but still not first world military ready.

Maybe the 9mm subguns work better than SBR with suppressors. In MAC video, the CZ Evo was "Hollywood silent" when using 147-gr sub 9mm ammo.

I've hunted with suppressed .300 SBR (friend's) and it was still loud as heck.

quote:

Originally posted by saigonsmuggler:
Maybe the 9mm subguns work better than SBR with suppressors. In MAC video, the CZ Evo was "Hollywood silent" when using 147-gr sub 9mm ammo.

I've hunted with suppressed .300 SBR (friend's) and it was still loud as heck.

Virtually any firearm with a subsonic round will be very quiet with a quality suppressor. The caliber doesn't matter. Subsonic 22lr, 9mm, 45acp, 308 Win, 300 blackout, 223 Remy -- they're all quiet with a can.

Your friend's 300 blackout should have been supersonic for hunting. Virtually any firearm with a supersonic round will be loud, even with a good suppressor.

Go down range, in a safe pit or behind a protective berm, and have someone shoot supersonic rounds over your head. Even if you can barely hear the report of the shot being fired, the supersonic crack of the bullet flying overhead will be loud enough that you will want hearing pro.

As to why the Army would be looking for a submachine gun, I can't add anything that hasn't already been said. I'm skeptical about how serious this proposal actually is. There is very little that an SBR cannot accomplish that an unsuppressed SMG can. With cartridges like the .300 BLK, there's little need for SMGs, even suppressed.

However, if the army decided to go with an SMG, the MPX would be the obvious choice for a couple reasons.

1) The MPX is manufactured here in the US (political boost).
2) The MPX shares the same manual of arms as the M16/M4.
3) The MPX is easier to manufacture than an MP5, which would likely be the next closest competitor. Although HK would probably try pushing the UMP, it's never lived up to the smoothness of its stamped-steel forebear.

FYI - Here is Military.com's report on this topic:

Military.com 12 Jun 2018 By Matthew Cox

U.S. Army weapons officials plan to purchase subcompact weapons from 10 different gun makers for testing in an effort to better arm personal security detail units.

U.S. Army Contracting Command, on behalf of Project Manager Soldier Weapons, recently announced it will spend $428,480 to award sole-source contracts to Beretta USA, Colt Manufacturing Company, CMMG Inc., CZ-USA, Sig Sauer and five other small-arms makers for highly concealable subcompact weapon systems "capable of engaging threat personnel with a high volume of lethal and accurate fires at close range with minimal collateral damage," according to a June 6 special award notice.

"Currently, Personal Security Detail (PSD) military personnel utilize pistols and rifles; however, there is an operational need for additional concealability and lethality," the notice states. "Failure to provide the selected SCW for assessment and evaluation will leave PSD military personnel with a capability gap which can result in increased warfighter casualties and jeopardize the success of the U.S. mission."

Companies selected have until June 16 to respond to the notice. The weapons will be used in an evaluation to "inform current capabilities for the Capability Production Document for the Maneuver Support Center of Excellence," the notice states.

"The acquisition of the SCW is essential in meeting the agency's requirement to support Product Manager, Individual Weapons mission to assess commercially available off-the-shelf (COTS) SCWs in order to fill a capability gap in lethality and concealability."

Here is a list of sole-source contracts for the subcompact weapons:
• Beretta USA Corporation for PMX subcompact weapon. Amount: $16,000.
• Colt's Manufacturing Company LLC for CM9MM-9H-M5A, Colt Modular 9mm subcompact weapon. Amount: $22,000.
• CMMG Inc. for Ultra PDW subcompact weapon. Amount: $8,500.
• CZ-USA for Scorpion EVO 3 A1 submachine gun. Amount: $14,490.
• Lewis Machine & Tool Company for MARS-L9 compact suppressed weapon. Amount: $21,900.
• PTR Industries Inc. for PTR 9CS subcompact weapon. Amount: $12,060.
• Quarter Circle 10 LLC 5.5 CLT and 5.5 QV5 subcompact weapons. Amount: $24,070.
• Sig Sauer Inc. for MPX subcompact weapon. Amount: $20,160.
• Trident Rifles LLC for B&T MP9 machine gun. Amount: $36,000.
• Zenith Firearms for Z-5RS, Z-5P and Z-5K subcompact weapons. Amount: $39,060.

-- Matthew Cox can be reached at matthew.cox@military.com.

© Copyright 2018 Military.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

CZ EVO A1 for the win. Can’t think of anything off hand that is more durable, reliable, and cost effective. It’s also a proven design already in Europe.

KAC PDW is tits.
Sadly, not a 9mm.

quote:

U.S. Army weapons officials plan to purchase subcompact weapons from 10 different gun makers for testing in an effort to better arm personal security detail units.


Here is a list of sole-source contracts for the subcompact weapons:
• Beretta USA Corporation for PMX subcompact weapon. Amount: $16,000.
• Colt's Manufacturing Company LLC for CM9MM-9H-M5A, Colt Modular 9mm subcompact weapon. Amount: $22,000.
• CMMG Inc. for Ultra PDW subcompact weapon. Amount: $8,500.
• CZ-USA for Scorpion EVO 3 A1 submachine gun. Amount: $14,490.
• Lewis Machine & Tool Company for MARS-L9 compact suppressed weapon. Amount: $21,900.
• PTR Industries Inc. for PTR 9CS subcompact weapon. Amount: $12,060.
• Quarter Circle 10 LLC 5.5 CLT and 5.5 QV5 subcompact weapons. Amount: $24,070.
• Sig Sauer Inc. for MPX subcompact weapon. Amount: $20,160.
• Trident Rifles LLC for B&T MP9 machine gun. Amount: $36,000.
• Zenith Firearms for Z-5RS, Z-5P and Z-5K subcompact weapons. Amount: $39,060.

-- Matthew Cox can be reached at matthew.cox@military.com.

© Copyright 2018 Military.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

How is this gun better than an MP5?

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

What is your prediction?

5 years of money and evaluation.

Nothing adopted or bought.

Waste of time and money.

This but I'll go five and a half years and wasting lots of money. I learned my predicting skills from The Price is Right.