Last clarification,

If what ever combination of rifle and ammo, etc, etc, has the ability to consistantly make three inch groups at 400 yds.

The only job of the level is to make sure the shooter does his job consistantly to continue performance
requirements.

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
Last clarification,

If what ever combination of rifle and ammo, etc, etc, has the ability to consistantly make three inch groups at 400 yds.

The only job of the level is to make sure the shooter does his job consistantly to continue performance
requirements.

I think you are asking if the purpose of the level is to make sure the shooter is set up properly. This answer is, that is correct; the level is just there to reassure the shooter that he or she is holding the rifle properly with respect to having the sighting system straight up above the bore and not canted to one side or the other.

Excellent,

would be interested in seeing how your level is mounted on the rifle, if and when you get time.

I appreciate you taking the time.

There is a picture of my F-TR match rifle in this thread:
https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...180033664#8180033664

You can see the level attached to the main tube right behind the objective bell and it's on the left side. It appears to my left eye between the large focus wheel and the main tube.

A level attached to the scope mount.
Until I got the current scope, I used ring mount levels, but with this scope and mount, there wasn't room for another ring with the level in a position where I could see it clearly.

Being near-sighted in my left eye, the position pictured for the level works well.



Another level and mount were pictured here. It was a Flatline Ops level that could be folded back/forward against the rail. Being somewhat longer than the Spuhr level pictured above it was a little more sensitive/accurate, but I prefer the more compact design that I don't have to remember to flip out before getting into shooting position.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

Been using this model for many years. Mounted behind the rear scope ring.

https://www.usoptics.com/product/bbl-100/

On the subject of keeping a rifle level... I was groundhog hunting once with a friend who spotted a hog on the side of a hill. Believe it or not he actually canted his rifle thinking since his target wasn't straight, his rifle shouldn't be either. Of course he missed the hog. I didn't want to embarrass him or start an argument, so I just kept my mouth shut.

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
Am I to understand that the majority of of shooters that choose to utilize levels with scoped rifles are most often shooting from a stabilized support? Either bags or bi pods.

quote:

Originally posted by NikonUser:
I know that PRS shooters have them on their rifles

Not all PRS/NRL/steel match shooters have levels on their rifles. There is an increasing trend of tight time constraints, multiple targets, multiple shooting positions, and substantial movement between shooting positions. Targets are tending towards smaller. Often there isn't time to obtain a really shooting position, let alone confirm the position via the bubble level. And yet scores seem to be rising. IMO the bubble level is best using in practice, so that the shooter develops a pretty good intuitive feel for when his rifle is level.

Here's an example of last July's NRL match in Craig, CO. NRL matches tend to have fewer "circus act" stages than PRS, but...
- 105 seconds for the stage, starting with rifle in hand, from standing position, mag in, bolt back.
- Only one target, a 16" steel circle at 663 yards. Painted white at the start of the day, and I could clearly see it early in the morning with bare eyes against the brown dirt behind. By the end of the day the paint was gone, and it blended in with the nearby dirt.
- Three shooting positions, and three shots on target from each of the three positions.

Shooting position #1 was prone -- all of my squad of 10 shot with bipod up front and rear bag. We had to move up a 7-8 foot high sandy berm and shoot from the crest of it. The berm sloped slightly down to the right. Bipod legs were in soft sand on the far side of the berm's crest, rear bags on the close side of the berm. Bipod legs would dive into the sand if weighted too firmly.

Shooting position #2 was prone on firm grassy ground, 20 feet to the right of position #1, and about 10 feet lower in elevation. Level ground side-to-side, but the ground sloped downwards. Unless one had longer bipod legs and/or the ability to move bipod legs to the rear (think ARCA rail), it was really difficult to get the muzzle high enough to engage the target.

Shooting position #3 was prone, about 30 feet right of #2, about 8 feet higher in elevation. If one shot left handed, one could curl up nicely between a boulder and sagebrush roots. Shooting right handed caused a funky left-twisted lower torso, resting the front of the rifle on the sagebrush roots. Most of our squad shot right handed, using a game-changer bag as the primary rifle rest. Even with the game changer bag, I found it hard to keep the rifle level. I probably had a good 5-10 degree tilt to one side, plus some wobble.

The two best shooters on our squad went 9 for 9. One lefty and one right-handed shooter. Both of them had only a couple of seconds left over, and were panting heavily from the movement between positions. I hit 6 of the 8 shots I took -- 3/3 on position 1, 2/3 on position 2 (wind call miss), and 1/2 on position 3 (unstable position and ran out of time).

A bubble level would be nice for positions 1 and 3, but there was no time to check it. FWIW, I have a level on the rifle I used here.

IMO the benefits of a level depend a lot upon the type of shooting done.

Just as important to have a level on your 22LR!

My preferred location for a level. One of the monthly 22 matches I shoot has a VTAC wall with a tight time. As well as other stages with "port holes". If I had a level on my scope that sat proud of the scope opposed to a rail mount, high probability it would be banged up, ripped off....

Crappy picture of my 40X 22LR/level

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
the ability to move bipod legs to the rear (think ARCA rail)

Interesting information tidbit that got me to thinking.

The Arca rail system would make it faster to adjust the bipod’s location (I assume), but do any of the people you see competing have full Picatinny rails or addition rail section(s) farther back on the bottom of the forend of the rifle to help deal with the shooting situation you described by moving the bipod? Some bipods, including the venerable Harris, have legs that permit much longer extensions than the Atlas I use, but I hate the thought of changing to a different brand/design. The Atlas permits adding leg extensions, of course, but that’s really slow, and I’ve never even used the ones I own.

How common are shooting positions that require much longer bipod legs or would benefit from moving the bipod farther back on the forend?

quote:

Originally posted by offgrid:
If I had a level on my scope that sat proud of the scope opposed to a rail mount, high probability it would be banged up, ripped off....

That was the point I was trying to make about the flip-out Flatline level I was using at one time. In one shooting position at my range the level contacted the support if I didn’t fold it out of the way and that was a time-consuming distraction.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
the ability to move bipod legs to the rear (think ARCA rail)

Interesting information tidbit that got me to thinking.

The Arca rail system would make it faster to adjust the bipod’s location (I assume), but do any of the people you see competing have full Picatinny rails or addition rail section(s) farther back on the bottom of the forend of the rifle to help deal with the shooting situation you described by moving the bipod? Some bipods, including the venerable Harris, have legs that permit much longer extensions than the Atlas I use, but I hate the thought of changing to a different brand/design. The Atlas permits adding leg extensions, of course, but that’s really slow, and I’ve never even used the ones I own.

How common are shooting positions that require much longer bipod legs or would benefit from moving the bipod farther back on the forend?

With a the Ckye Pod/full pic rail it's a bit faster in that the release to slide is a simple push button lock/unlock indexing on the pic slots. Arca bi-pod mounts have a clamp screw/knob, little slower. Negative to the all pic rail is clamping to a tripod, need a saddle. Clamping a tripod to a Arca rail is much more stable then a clamp.

Local matches I shoot common to shoot off of 55 gallon drums or narrow tables...., slide bi-pod back which enables to use rear bag. Match like the Steel Safari in natural terrain that replicates hunting shots very common to have the Cyke Pod fully extended on one or both legs.

Have to get you out to my buddies range when it warms up, mess with all this stuff in person. It's just under two hours from you. Start saving now$$!

Bi-pods available today, Cyke Pod is it! Sold all my Atlas bipods except one to buy a Cyke Pod.

When it warms up have to get you out to my buddies range, mess with all this stuff in person. Just under 2 hours from you. Start saving now$!

I had noticed that the CKYE-POD was popular with PRS shooters. In checking I see that MDT says the original version is no longer available, but a Gen 2 is supposed to be launched “soon.” I signed up to be notified.

Thanks. I may have some questions.

Added: I see that one vendor is listing the Gen 2 for sale. I wonder if they really have it available. Perhaps I’ll inquire.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
How common are shooting positions that require much longer bipod legs or would benefit from moving the bipod farther back on the forend?

Offgrid lists good examples of shooting from a top of an upright barrel, and narrow tables. Barrels are simple props, and are commonly used. Wood spools show up on a few matches, and bipod leg placement can be quite tricky.

Ckye Pods have a number of adjustment advantages over other bipod designs, including Atlas. I have not yet gone down the Ckye Pod road, but probably will at some point.

I've seen quite a few shooters with multiple sections of pic rails on the front of their stocks. Arca rails are becoming increasingly common in PRS/NRL/steel matches. Arca rails are an easy addition to many modular-type stocks. I choose to stay with McMillan/Manners type stocks, therefore adding a long Arca rail to the stock's forend takes a little planning.

I just added a 12" long Arca rail to my relatively new Grayboe-stocked 223 bolt action. Grayboe stocks have built-in MLok sections on the bottom of the forend, so it was just a manner of finding an Arca of the right configuration that attached via MLok nuts.

I am increasingly seeing advantages for the Arca rail. In last year's NRL Craig match, we had 3 stages where gaining enough bipod elevation was a challenge. A few shooters in my squad had to shoot with packs under their bipods -- not an ideal solution. Stacking packs or bags takes precious time, and often isn't very stable. Or adaptable to multiple targets.

In many matches we shoot from barriers. Prior to the Arca rail, I put the bipod on the far side of the barrier and rested the stock forend on a bag top of the barrier. Now I generally slide the bipod all the way back, maybe put a bag between the barrier and the Arca rail, and press forward into the barrier with the deployed bipod. I find this a much more stable position. Furthermore, the Arca rail is a flat, smooth, and relatively wide platform to rest on a barrier. If the top of the barrier is flat, I have a position with virtually no side-to-side wobble.

As usual, fritz, thanks for that detailed discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Added: I see that one vendor is listing the Gen 2 for sale. I wonder if they really have it available. Perhaps I’ll inquire.

Being unsure whether there might be any counterfeit Ckye-Pod bipods floating around, I called MDT. The rep said that some Gen 2 models had been sent to retailers who had the original version on backorder, and therefore it was possible that some Gen 2s were available for sale.
But when I tried putting one in the cart at the vendor that listed them, I got, “Not available; sign up for notification.”

That’s probably just as well because I’ll spend more time researching them. I found some references to shooters who had both an Atlas and a Ckye for different situations. So that seems like it might be a good idea, and I already have an Atlas ….

I must say, though, that I never anticipated that I would ever even give thought to a $6C bipod—but I have to have something to spend that stimulus money on.

sigfreund, slightly off topic, but what is your goal for the ACRO (somewhat occluded) in that bubble level picture?

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
sigfreund, slightly off topic, but what is your goal for the ACRO (somewhat occluded) in that bubble level picture?

It is a backup sight intended primarily for close range.
It is somewhat occluded as you see, but it is nevertheless usable for the purpose with the reticle dot clearly visible. I use it as such sights should be used, with both eyes open and essentially “looking through” the body of the sight and the scopesight elevation knob. The restricted field of view through the sight is of no significance in comparison with how the rifle and scope restrict the FOV themselves.

I originally thought to mount the ACRO higher, but the scope and accessories were already pretty massive and when I found that mounting it higher wasn’t necessary I decided to leave it as pictured. I also experimented with mounting the sight at a 45 degree angle on the right side of the scope mount behind the elevation and windage adjustment knobs as the Spuhr system permits. But although that allowed a full view through the sight, I wasn’t happy with having to tilt the rifle to the left to use the ACRO, and all the complications of that method.

If I had any other current use for the ACRO I wouldn’t have installed it on the rifle, but I don’t, and it serves as a proof of concept, possibly for a law enforcement sniper.

A similar setup with a Docter sight I have no other use for. (Updated picture.)





The Docter’s field of view is not occluded, but it adds quite a bit to the overall height of the package.

The Docter mounted earlier at 45 degrees with an Accuracy 1st level. A much more compact setup, but less intuitive to use.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

Thanks. and interesting. I would of thought that the amount of occluding in the photo would have made the acro unusable. i know on magnified scopes it doesn't matter too much but on a red dot I thought it would matter, so something learned.

This is an old thread, but the topic can still be relevant. I ran across this video that takes only a few minutes to watch and has a nice practical demonstration of why eliminating rifle cant is important for long range shooting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMaAdR8tivw

To update my own two cents since the original thread…

Seems to be a couple schools of thought:
1. You need them.

2. You really only need them at extreme long range and even then the effect is not much.

3. You don’t need them, your brain tells you just fine what’s level.



Personally, it’s something I’ve always wondered about with my own shooting. I finally bought one out of curiosity and put it on a rifle, and what I found is, my brain is really really bad at telling me what’s level.

Maybe I’d do better in a perfect situation, but that so rarely happens. Example, I’m shooting from a bench, that I’m too tall for, so my upright body position is not great, not straight. I’m shooting at a small diamond shaped sticker as my aiming point, that isn’t straight. In a line of stickers that’s not level. On a piece of paper that’s not straight. Stapled to a plywood target board that’s not level. In front of the berm that’s not level. So it’s not hard to figure out why your brain would play tricks on you.

What I have found is when I first start shooting I am way off when I checked the level. After a few minutes I guess my brain learns with the site picture should look like and sticks with it, anytime I check it after that it’s pretty good.