I think I figured it out Prdro's mystery. He got birdshot shells mixed up with "cut shells", and equated the latter as an equal to a slug. So he made two mistakes, not just one. That's why dangerous game hunters use cut shells for the really big stuff.

Good grief, I can't take it anymore. If you made your living making decisions based on that line of reasoning, I'm glad I never had to work for you.

It hasn't been that long since there was a vigorous internet discussion about the tradition of the Cut Shell. I don't think it rose to dangerous game though. There was less mention of the Waxed Shell than I would have expected.

You guys have reinvented the small shot for defense debate. I recall when it was commonly said that a game load would blow a "rat hole" in an intruder.
But don't look at me, I am a buckshot loader... when I can't get to a rifle or don't have to draw a pistol.

I don't need a reason to not use birdshot for self defence.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
It hasn't been that long since there was a vigorous internet discussion about the tradition of the Cut Shell. I don't think it rose to dangerous game though. There was less mention of the Waxed Shell than I would have expected.

You guys have reinvented the small shot for defense debate. I recall when it was commonly said that a game load would blow a "rat hole" in an intruder.
But don't look at me, I am a buckshot loader... when I can't get to a rifle or don't have to draw a pistol.

Jim, I was being facetious.

What if you carefully removed the shot from the birdshot, then cast it into a hollow tube about an 1 1/4" on the outside, 7/8" on the inside and 18" long. That would be a man-stopper right there, and a real conversation starter! Imagine supplementing this weapon of ultimate destruction with a short section of rope, a heavy brass candle holder, a kitchen knife, a monkey wrench, and lastly a revolver. 100% protection from all threads, both foreign and domestic.

Finally made it out to the range today to test some birdshot loads with water jugs.

Before I went I paced off some distances in my house. From my bedroom door to the front door is 7 yards. Maximum possible shot inside my house is about 15 yards. I also did some testing at 3 yards, even though that's not a distance that I'd like to engage with a long gun, as when you get that close it's very easy for “my” gun to become “our” gun.

I used my 870 for most of the penetration testing, as it is my primary HD long gun. It has an 18” barrel with fixed IC choke. I also brought my A300 with 28” barrel and shot some of the loads with a modified and a full choke to get an idea of the pattern, but unfortunately I didn't have enough milk jugs to test all the possibilities.

For ammo, I had some 2 ¾” #8 target loads, some 2 ¾” #6 Field loads, and 3” Magnum #4 Turkey loads. I also shot 1 round of Federal Flight Control 9 pellet 00 Buck, but didn't pattern this as it's expensive and I'm already familiar with its performance out of my gun.

The first thing I did was pattern the loads and the guns.

The 870 with improved cylinder produced approximately a 3” group at 3 yards with all 3 birdshot loads. At 7 yards the #8 was 10.25”, the #6 9”, and the #4 8.25”. At 15 yards all three of them were off the 18” wide cardboard.

With the modified choke at 3 yards all 3 were between 1.5-2”. At 7 yards all three were about 5”, and at 15 yards each was about a foot.

With full choke the 3 yard shots were again 1.5-2”. At 7 yards they were about 3”, and at 15 yards they were about 12”, which was actually very similar to what I got with the modified choke.

For shooting the milk jugs I stacked a row of jugs in a line, placed 4 layers of blue jean (2 legs) over the front jug, and placed a piece of ¼” plywood between the first and second jug to simulate bone. This is way thinner and flimsier stuff than the 1” board that I typically use for bear load testing, and I imagine human bone is likely to be a lot stronger than this stuff, but it's what I had. I didn't have enough jugs so I only shot them with the #6, the #4, and 00 buck.

At 7 yards with #6, most pellets penetrated the first jug and then lodged in the board. None penetrated the board.

At 7 yards with the #4 magnum turkey load, basically the same thing happened, except one pellet made it through a pre-drilled hole in the board and fully penetrated the second jug, without penetrating the third.

Then I moved up to 3 yards.

At 3 yards with #6, the first jug was destroyed, but no pellets penetrated the board.



At 3 yards with #4, the first jug was destroyed, and the board was cracked from the pressure, but no pellets penetrated.



At this point I decided I needed to test penetration without the board. Unfortunately, I was out of #4, so I could only try #6. At 3 yards, #6 destroyed the first jug and penetrated into the second, but no pellets exited the second jug.

Finally, I did the 00 buck with the jugs I had left. Since the FBI standard for handgun ammo penetration is 18”, and each jug is about 6” thick, I moved the board to behind the third jug. I fired one round of 00 at 7 yards. It went through the first 3 jugs, the board, and ultimately stopped in the 6th jug.



Conclusion: I'm well aware that this is not a scientific test, and milk jugs and plywood are not a perfect 1:1 analog for human tissue or residential construction. But they do provide a basic idea of penetration.

The performance of the #6 shot was underwhelming. Even without a piece of wood in there I didn't get a full 12” of penetration, even at a measly 3 yards.

The #4 load carried more energy but didn't achieve much more penetration, despite being a heavy magnum turkey load with as much or more recoil than the 00 buck. It got stopped after one jug by a whimpy piece of ¼” plywood (granted it did crack the plywood in half). I wish I'd had enough of it to try shooting plain jugs without the wood, but based on the other observations I’d guess it would make it into the 3rd jug but not exit. So if you're willing to take on the magnum recoil and capacity penalty, theoretically you might achieve adequate penetration on soft tissue without overpenetrating, but if it encounters anything hard it's probably going to get stopped.

00 at 7 yards is very effective. Yes, it's probably going to overpenetrate with enough force to kill somebody right on the other side of a wall from your intended target. But unless you live in an apartment, trailer park, or some tightly packed subdivision with super crappy construction, I wouldn't be too concerned about accidentally killing the neighbors with pellets that have already gone through the bad guy. If you miss altogether, though, then it's definitely going to punch through walls.

The ideal load is probably going to fall somewhere between the #4 turkey load and the #00 buck. I know #4 Buck has been quoted as an ideal HD load to minimize overpenetration, but unfortunately I don't have any of that to try.

Thankfully in my situation, my kids are upstairs, my wife is behind me in the back corner of the house furthest from the door, and my neighbors in a 180 degree semicircle out the front of the house are all at least 100 yards away. So 00 works for me. It might not be best for you.

And based on what I saw, a #6 field load isn't right for anybody.

6 inches of penetration is not acceptable by any ballistic testing standards.

That was a lot of time, effort and dollars you put into that experiment, 92fstech.

Very interesting.
And thanks for posting!

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
That was a lot of time, effort and dollars you put into that experiment, 92fstech.

Very interesting.
And thanks for posting!

Well, I've always preferred to just try stuff for myself whenever possible. And thankfully being the resident "gun guy", people sometimes just give me random unwanted ammo that they have lying around, so that's where most of the shotshells came from. And my kids drink altogether too much milk .

I didn't read every post on this subject but the ones I did failed to mention penetration through cover.
If the scenario leads to an adversary taking cover around the corner of a wall or behind furniture only a fool would trust bird shot to penetrate the barrier and then the adversary.

This is why I use ammunition that has been tested for sufficient penetration in my home defense AR-15 with a 11.5" barrel. I would gladly use a 18" 12 gauge with most any buck shot if I didn't choose a short barreled rifle.

Yes, it's conceivable that in repelling a home invasion, it may be necessary to shoot through a residential exterior door, typically 20, 22 or 24 gauge steel front and back, with a foam core.

At contact distance, birdshot might penetrate, but will surely lose its cohesive shot mass upon penetration, which is the only thing it has going for it.

For a sure bet, trust 1 buck or larger.

I set it up to start at the timestamp. Guy accidentally shoots his phone with birdshot at about maybe fifteen yards. Three pellets hit it and got stopped by a basic phone case. Yeah, forget about penetrating barriers, you're not penetrating much of anything.

An AR for Home defense, do you have neighbors, at least ones you like, that will blow through a couple dry walls, plywood sheathing and into your neighbors house real easy....

I'm not saying birdshot is more lethal than buckshot, but it is an effective, safer alternative at most house ranges and situations.... I also never said to use #8, 4 would be my choice and I have some old high brass #2s. I also would not use an open choke tactical shotgun, fine for buck and slugs but not birdshot. I use a 97 Winchester that Carlson cut down to 21" with a big brass bead and choketubes, Full or modified produce very small patterns at normal house ranges....Use the right tool for the job and know how it works...

Couple of examples for ya, I have some pressing family stuff so I have not had time to shoot my own tests as 92 did..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gGCedWUkk8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc

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I think I've found just the thing which has the penetration characteristics you desire.

Don't forget the ammo...

quote:

Originally posted by 1860ARMY:
Use the right tool for the job and know how it works...

For most, an 18.5" pump or semi-auto, cylinder bore, with #1 or 00 Buckshot. Me, a 1301 Tactical Mod 2 with Flitecontrol 00 Buck.

And your characterization of ARs "that will blow through a couple dry walls, plywood sheathing and into your neighbors house real easy" is laughable.

The thread subject and first post refer to "While shooting 12-ga. target/game loads* in a Mossberg and a Benelli, both with cylinder bore barrels with no choke, at a 23x35-inch silhouette at ~20 feet, there were a considerable number of pecker holes outside of the main grouping". (emphasis mine)


Shot size wasn't mentioned, but probably #7 1/2 or #8.


So, I have to agree, at 20 feet, birdshot with an open choke whatever barrel length would be a poor choice for hostage rescue.

quote:

And your characterization of ARs "that will blow through a couple dry walls, plywood sheathing and into your neighbors house real easy" is laughable.

A guy in our department was almost killed by a round fired inside a house that went through the kitchen wall, front door, caught him in the arm pit while he was on the sidewalk...Laughable, yeah I'll bet he is sill laughing...

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quote:

The thread subject

The thread subject is "A reason not to use birdshot in a self defense shotgun" So if the OP just wanted people to agree with him, why post it at all. For me there are a few reason to use it, and some situations where it won't be appropriate... One of these guys above posted about shooting trough the front door in a home invasion.. bird shot will not be good for that, but doing that will not be a good idea in most instances.. how do you know what's on the other side of the door or who... First rule of gun safety, be sure of your target and what's beyond it...bunch of cowboys shooting through doors..

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To the sling shot comedians, did you even look at the videos... Probably not, since you like to sling stuff, here is what I think you are slinging..


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