With ammo prices and availability the way they are, and time as precious as it is for most of us, do you feel as though you're wasting both of those resources training with a rifle that isn't your go-to, real deal carbine? I don't think I am alone in having a certain rifle that I consider my primary; a rifle in which I have invested more time, money, and training than anything else I own. In being somewhat of a "gun guy", I have other rifles as well, that I enjoy for one reason or other. I am often tempted to shoot them; to train with them. I almost always decide it better not to, in the interest of putting that ammo and time toward what I consider to be the more relevant and practical rifle. Do others face this same dilemma, and choose the way I do?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: KSGM,

I don't, but I put away enough ammo and components to last me for a long, long time, even though I shoot at least twice a week.

I've actually been shooting other rifles more, because I can get large primers much easier than small, and other components are also readily available. I've been shooting cowboy action stuff and 1911s on the pistol side for the same reason.

I cycle through my rifles regularly to make sure they are still zeroed in, also I enjoy shooting, as well as for general training.

No, I shoot all rifles equally poorly.

Like many questions that KSGM poses, this is another interesting one that caused me to think about my habits. My shooting practices are affected by the weather more than anything else. I am not limited by the guns, ammunition, or venue, but although at one time I would have pushed myself to practice regardless of the temperature or how much snow was on the ground, I no longer feel that proves anything to me—and I have no need to prove anything to anyone else. I still do enough things, including shooting, when it’s cold and snowing to demonstrate I can do them if necessary, and that’s sufficient.

In addition I’ve found that my proficiency with my primary defensive weapons when I get back to training with them even after a couple of months hasn’t deteriorated very much, so that reduces the sense of urgency. I recognize that all that’s a healthy dose of rationalization and it wouldn’t do if I were getting ready for Delta selection, but I’m not. At my age I feel good about myself if I lift weights every morning.

There is one exception: I do not shoot my precision rifles very much, i.e., no 200-round sessions, and therefore I have a goal of shooting certain drills at least once a month, year round. They are basically Can you go out and hit a precision target from different positions and at different ranges with no warm-up even when you’d rather be inside? Thus far: Yes.

Added: And although I’m not a dry fire fanatic as some people claim to be, even a little bit does help. Further, I’ve found that when I do it, many low-round-count sessions help my proficiency more than a few that involve firing a lot of ammunition. The “serious” training course I fire most often uses 30 rounds of handgun and 35 rounds of carbine ammunition.

quote:

Further, I’ve found that when I do it, many low-round-count sessions help my proficiency more than a few that involve firing a lot of ammunition.

I agree with this. I will add that this approach also has a much higher probability of motivating the shooter with noticeable improvements in their performance, when compared to previous outings using the same curriculum.

The subject of this OP has made a resurgence for me lately, as I have become very pleased with the nighttime performance of a particular carbine that is not my primary. The debacle has reintroduced the possibility of experimenting with confirming return-to-zero of different optical setups on the same rifle, and swapping between them, depending on the situation. As prepared citizens, depending on the circumstances of whatever hypothetical we find ourselves in, we likely won't be performing short raids that have us departing from and returning to a ready room, where we can select whichever rifle or other equipment we need for the task, while leaving others for another day/task. One gun with two (or more) zeroed and relatively QD optical setups seems practical to me. In my case, it'll be an Elcan Specter and an Eotech on a Larue riser; the first step is confirming they can both be removed and re-installed without incurring any sort of meaningful shift.

While to a degree manual of arms/ manipulations may change when switching platforms, the fundamentals of marksmanship do not.

There are two trains of thought which I can see the validity to both:
Being so intimately familiar with a single platform it is a natural subconscious extension of your self which should lend itself to a high level of proficiency

And

Being familiar enough with everything to be able to handle it competently

I fall in camp #2
I know this is a rifle question, but in pistols I can shift gears from a glock, to my small pocket guns to revolvers or 1911’s and don’t skip a beat.

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...do you feel as though you're wasting both of those resources training with a rifle that isn't your go-to, real deal carbine?

Nope, same with pistols too.
I will rotate in and shoot the defensive weapons but shooting the others does also offer training benefits, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by KSGM:
With ammo prices and availability the way they are, and time as precious as it is for most of us, do you feel as though you're wasting both of those resources training with a rifle that isn't your go-to, real deal carbine? I don't think I am alone in having a certain rifle that I consider my primary; a rifle in which I have invested more time, money, and training than anything else I own. In being somewhat of a "gun guy", I have other rifles as well, that I enjoy for one reason or other. I am often tempted to shoot them; to train with them. I almost always decide it better not to, in the interest of putting that ammo and time toward what I consider to be the more relevant and practical rifle. Do others face this same dilemma, and choose the way I do?

Most of my ARs are set up similarly enough, that the training overlap is still relevant.

Same or similar triggers, same or similar optics. There are a few outliers like my PRS gas gun rig, which is atrociously heavy but that's a game gun for me. Once a year I pull my deer rifle from the back of the safe, confirm zero, and go hunting. But I don't take that rifle out for range days, I just don't enjoy it the same way I do shooting steel or paper with an AR. I feel like even my 9mm AR is a decent trainer for my serious use ARs. Same manual of arms. Same mags, essentially, since I use PMAGs with an endomag insert. Just a red dot instead of an LPVO, which doesn't present a difficulty for me personally.


My 'fun guns' that I shoot regularly have the same manual of arms as the guns that I would grab at 0 dark 30.

As an additional comment, it’s hardly unknown for high level precision rifle shooters to use similar guns chambered for 22 Long Rifle for some of their training. There are significant differences between shooting a rimfire and a centerfire, but there are many similarities, especially in terms of basic marksmanship skills. As a teenager I was able to participate in small bore competitions shooting rimfire rifles at short distances using competition gear, and that experience was a great help a couple of years later when I was in basic training shooting an M14 under much different conditions.

If it’s really important and one has the resources and capability to shoot only one gun then of course that’s best. The time/effort/money involved with adapting to a different system may not be much, but they could be expended on and provide a bit more benefit to the primary.

And it’s certainly better to shoot something that’s available and feasible to use than not shooting anything at all because it isn't possible to shoot a primary.

One should not have a favorite weapon. To become over-familiar with one weapon is as much a fault as not knowing it sufficiently well. One should not copy others, but use weapons which one can handle properly.

Thus was it written, long ago and far, far away.

" Beware the man with one rifle ..."
That was written some time ago
too.

The one gun thing has been on my mind lately. It's more with handguns than rifles, but I've been playing around with a lot of variety (because I enjoy it), but I've found that while marksmanship fundamentals are universal and apply to everything, when I get on the timer and start pushing myself to the point where presentation and natural point of aim become a factor, some platforms just don't compete with the ones I've spent the most time on.

I don't think the reps spent on those guns necessarily detract from my current ability to use my "serious" guns, and there are definitely some skills that transfer...but I have this nagging guilt that if I dedicated the time and ammo to the "serious" stuff exclusively, I'd see greater practical return.

You ARE going to get the new Model 1894 Classic .44 Magnum, aren't you.

quote:

Originally posted by RichardC:
You ARE going to get the new Model 1894 Classic .44 Magnum, aren't you.

Lol you've clearly seen enough of my my collection to know what tempts me! Honestly I'd have a hard time passing on it were it not for the price and the fact that I already have the 1894P that my buddy sold me last year. It would be cool to do a comparison between the Ruger and the older "original" Marlin, though.

I did just score a CZ 457 Scout in an auction today, though...so there's another "non-primary" platform to dedicate some time and money to!

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
The one gun thing has been on my mind lately.

I honestly don’t know that it matters to me. I’ve picked up some arbitrary benchmarks to train for. One of them is a clean 25 yard bill drill in 3.5 seconds.

I shoot at least 12 magazines a week out of a Glock 17 and dry fire three nights a week. I’ve whittled the time down below 5 seconds. For the heck of it, I took a 320 AXG out the other night and ran a few magazines through it. I was under 4 seconds consistently with the 320. Even had one run clean at 3.27.

That is just an example.

I’ve been bouncing back and forth between optics on a FSP Saint. My arbitrary drill has been standing to prone at 50 yards, 5 rounds in five seconds. On a B8. With a 45 point or higher score. It doesn’t seem to matter. Even if I run a non-FSP gun. It doesn’t seem to matter until I change to a MK18. And it just costs me a little time because it’s a little snappier. But, it’s never more than a few percentage points difference.

I think reps transfer platform to platform.

So start standing, drop to prone, send 5 rounds from the prone, all in 5 seconds? That's quick...real quick. Especially with that accuracy standard. I'll have to give that a try...I don't expect that I can make that time, but it would be an interesting exercise just to see where I can get.

I know there's no way I'm cleaning a bill drill in 3.5 seconds at 25 yards with a handgun. My draw time alone is lucky to be under 1.5, and it's usually closer to 2...and trying to draw, establish sight picture, and make consistent hir at 25 yards, under 3.5 seems almost unachievable from where I'm at right now.

Tried it today...it kicked my butt. Best time on the rifle drill was 8.17 seconds, but I only scored a 44. It takes me over 4 seconds to get from standing to prone and break that first shot...not much time left to shoot five rounds in under 5 seconds at that point.

Somebody was using the bay that I needed when I went to shoot the handgun, so I could only get back to 22 yards...even at the shorter distance I was still over 6 seconds for a clean bill drill on an IDPA A-zone target.

Those are some tough goals.

To clean it I pretty much mount the gun on the way down. So instead of dropping and using my support hand to lower myself, I have to mount the gun and go knees to elbows with a good body position.

My forward hand drives downward on the forearm and I lock the gun into place.

Full disclosure, I can’t clean it every time either. But, if I’m over it’s never more than 6 seconds. Just like I can’t clean the Bill consistently. But, I’ll get there. And you can too. I started with an A box standard and moved to the B8. The A box I can clean consistently Sub 5.

Finally got some time to go to the rifle range again today and for once I had it to myself. I played around with the 50 yard B8 drill again...shaved some time off of getting to prone, had a few runs where I threw a couple of rounds, but most passed the accuracy standard of 45 points. Fastest run was 6.3 seconds, and interestingly it was also the only clean 50 point run of the day. Got the first shot off at 3.23 on that one. That run was exceptional, though...average times are still up around 7 seconds.

Thanks for the drill. It's fun and a good challenge that seems achievable with practice.

For handgun I've started playing with a variation of the Bakersfield Qual. Same time standards, but the target is a B8 and uses the scoring rings, so anything outside the 8 is -10. Accuracy is vital, but if you go too slow the time penalties will get you. My best score so far is an 88. It kicked my butt today...I need to get back out and try it again sometime this weekend.