quote:

Originally posted by MNSIG:
Of course, in a real defensive scenario you get a few tries at air gunning too. Right?

Just like a golfer or a baseball player taking warm up swings. These are all games, it's just that some people who shoot IDPA like to lie to themselves and pretend somehow it's not.


As for real life situations, I'm not a very serious competitor at all, but I can guarantee I've shot in more real life matches than you have real life gun fights.

cas, you shoot USPSA?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
While you may not see it, it happens quite a bit, and Ray is exactly on in his frustration.

I've been to matches where a "celebrity" will shut down stages for literally an hour so they can air gun it. When the RSO tries to shut them down, they bully them. They try to get a ruling from the match director, they bully them. It is often that they take the easy road by just letting them do what they want.

Over the last year, I have seen the worst that the sport has to offer. This behavior is exactly that.

I could send some of our MDs you way. They would gladly DQ that person for unsportsmanlike conduct, and add a ban from the club if it continued.

quote:

Originally posted by Floyd D. Barber:

Plus, you can call yourself Cactus Jack, or Dusty Rhoads..........................

Or "Rolan Kraps"

quote:

Originally posted by Rolan_Kraps:
Cowboy Action Shooting!

Get to shoot 4 guns every stage.
Come for the shooting, stay for the people.
Not filled with "Condo Commandos" who take themselves WAY too seriously. I mean, how serious can you be dressed up like a Cowboy?
Family Friendly.

"stay for the people" - You nailed it brother. The arrogance and attitude of some doesn't out weigh the majority of good people out there. I've been fortunate to meet/help/seek guidance from quite a few people.

I was discussing this with Jerry Jones up at a Richmond class. We both agreed that a high level of weapons handling and solid fundamentals crosses every spectrum of shooting. Being an ambassador for the sport doesn't require either.

I don't think any of the organizations that puts on matches are immune from some of the problems you can occasionally run into. Just like the level of creativity/difficulty can vary from place to place.

Good to hear!!!

I shoot CMP and NRA Highpower. I very occasionally shoot steel plate racks at the two clubs I belong to.

And you guys have described pretty much why I avoid competitions of any kind including deer and fishing contests. It seems as soon as you put a prize on the line, even if it's a $5 one, the assholes come out of the woodwork.

I have zero interest in shooting IDPA or any of the other "Games with Guns".

I shoot PRS & NRL style matches (in addition to actual sanctioned matches), and I also compete locally at bowling pin shoots.

I shoot USPSA, Steel Challenge, Rimfire Challenge, and a couple of club matches that are variations on those. One of my favorites is one the people hosting call Tactical Steel Match. It's a crap-ton of small steel at way to far distances (video below). They set up unique stages that are always challenging, usually minimal movement. It's Great practice for acquiring multiple hard to hit targets.

I'll shoot anything that doesn't require me to retain mags or have someone judge if I used enough cover. I'm not good, but it is fun.

quote:

Originally posted by PPGMD:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
While you may not see it, it happens quite a bit, and Ray is exactly on in his frustration.

I've been to matches where a "celebrity" will shut down stages for literally an hour so they can air gun it. When the RSO tries to shut them down, they bully them. They try to get a ruling from the match director, they bully them. It is often that they take the easy road by just letting them do what they want.

Over the last year, I have seen the worst that the sport has to offer. This behavior is exactly that.

I could send some of our MDs you way. They would gladly DQ that person for unsportsmanlike conduct, and add a ban from the club if it continued.

Sure. Keep believing that. If it makes you feel better, and whatnot. One chronic offender has a bunch of groupies that travels with him. Apparently they get off on being an asshole, and they'll all crowd the RO and bully him into giving "sensi" the ruling he wishes. I'm sure your guys will whip out the jammy and shoot all of them. :roll eyes: The other offender that I have seen recently is a stain on the sport. I watched her repeatedly cuss an RO and bully him, threatening that her sponsors would not return the next year for the match if he wasn't careful. Yep, sure your guys would be all over that too. FYI- It was a major match and she got two shoot overs until she got the score that she wanted.

Your local match may be run with an iron fist, but larger matches with "celebrities" are not. Follow the money.

It is going to be sorta fun when the stain's sponsors find out what they have bought into. I'll pop the popcorn.

I shoot USPSA, and have shot IDPA and Steel in the past.

I find USPSA more interesting/challenging than IDPA, and the only Steel Challenge matches nearby that fit into my schedule shut down a few years ago.

I only shoot small local matches, so I haven't seen any of the aforementioned "celebrity" nonsense.

As such, no one is "air-gunning" a stage so much that it slows down the day. Usually, whoever is "on deck," and whoever is "in the hole," air-guns while everyone else is scoring, taping, and picking up brass, and there are little to no delays to the action.

I like the idea of IDPA, but got annoyed with it in reality. Too many "tactical Timmy" types.

I got tired of being lectured on "tactics," and sometimes with little or no relation to the rules of the game, or any association with reality.

I especially got annoyed that the some guy or girl who would lecture me about "tactics," and how "realistic" IDPA is, would shoot the match with gear set up for competition, and then swap out to completely different gear for carry.

IDPA, just like USPSA, is "a game." If it wasn't then the people who carry a j-frame revolver in a pocket, and no reloads, would be shooting IPDA with that, or those that carry a Glock 26 IWB, using an untucked shirt for concealment, and no spare mag, would shoot IDPA with that setup.

However, what you see is the competition gun, in a competition holster, with competition spare mags/holders, and a "concealment" vest, for "game" day. Yet, many of those same shooters will deride USPSA for being a "game," and not "realistic."

I find it as annoying as some of my co-workers who will brag about how well they shot their back-up/off-duty gun during qualifications. However, they did it from an open carry OWB holster, but "on the street" they carry that gun IWB, or worse yet on an ankle rig, as their only gun, with no spare mags. I greatly enjoyed the day our lead FI made everyone shoot from concealment. Those folks who do it regularly got quite a chuckle out of those who do not.

Anyway, I find USPSA more interesting/challenging, than IDPA, and enjoy the fact that most, but unfortunately not all, people are not pretending it's anything more than a game involving shooting guns for accuracy and speed. I will shoot IPDA if I can't make it to a USPSA match, and an IDPA match fits into my schedule, but that's a rare occurrence.

I have been in PPC matches and won a few times. These have been smaller and I knew almost all 20 of the other competitors. Been about 2 years now since I've competed. Loved it and there was no bullshit in any of it.
Shot steel once and there was a guy there who was well known in the area but not a celebrity who ruined it for me.
Used to do a bowling pin shoot every Wednesday in that state up North that was fun. Never won but it was a good group of guys.
In all of the matches, my weapon was one of my carry rotation. I never had the mindset of winning, I just wanted to see what I could do with my carry pistols and have fun.
Surprising when I won a PPC match with an old, worn 3913. What made it better was all the other competitors coming over and congratulating me. After the match, we all went inside the club that was hosting the event and ate together. That was the best part.

quote:

Originally posted by DMF:
I shoot USPSA, and have shot IDPA and Steel in the past.

Much like you, I like both. Lots of good people there. Both can be the equivalent of Mike Tyson's "Everybody has a plan till you get punched in the face".
It is the few that ruin it for everyone else for stuff like airgunning. It is a game, and everyone has their goals. Some show up to check their performance. Some show up to win, or do really well. Place me in the latter.

But, you can do the latter without being a jackass.

(just building off of your excellent post, DMF)

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Sure. Keep believing that. If it makes you feel better, and whatnot. One chronic offender has a bunch of groupies that travels with him. Apparently they get off on being an asshole, and they'll all crowd the RO and bully him into giving "sensi" the ruling he wishes. I'm sure your guys will whip out the jammy and shoot all of them. :roll eyes: The other offender that I have seen recently is a stain on the sport. I watched her repeatedly cuss an RO and bully him, threatening that her sponsors would not return the next year for the match if he wasn't careful. Yep, sure your guys would be all over that too. FYI- It was a major match and she got two shoot overs until she got the score that she wanted.

Your local match may be run with an iron fist, but larger matches with "celebrities" are not. Follow the money.

It is going to be sorta fun when the stain's sponsors find out what they have bought into. I'll pop the popcorn.

Most of the major matches I attend are run by USA. I firmly believe Shannon and his crew wouldn't put up with it. I've seen how they've dealt with Prima Donnas in the past.

Looks like I'll take a hard look at USPSA and GSSF.

For USPSA do you have to shoot the classifier or can you go in unclassified and promote through performance?

quote:

Originally posted by piedrarc:
For USPSA do you have to shoot the classifier or can you go in unclassified and promote through performance?

Almost every local match has a classifier stage (though some matches have more like classifier matches where you shoot 4-6 classifier stages). After four classifier stages shot they give you a classification based on your average performance.

Once you get more than 6 they do a rolling average of your 4 best of the last 6 classifier stages shot (except duplicates where you have a better score on record).

Of course you have to be a member to get a classification. But you can judge your performance by taking your high factor and putting it into a calculator. And they only run updates once a week, and the score won't affect you classification until they clubs pays the fees on the match (USPSA gets $1 per a shooter).

I shoot IDPA as opposed to the other disciplines because IDPA is the most geographically convenient for me.

I compete merely to reveal the weaknesses in my pistolcraft skills. Fortunately I am never in any
danger of winning anything, so I don't get caught up in any of the drama and just focus on having fun and identifying opportunities for self-improvement.

And I compete in jeans using my EDC gun and set-up under an untucked T-shirt. I don't take issue with the folks who are there in "concealment vests," but since I'm not there to win anything my approach to concealment centers on putting my real-life EDC set-up to the test.

Whatever

jljones, thanks for the compliment, but after reading it again, I think my tone may have been too harsh with regard to IDPA.

Yes, those things annoy me, and the larger number of "tactical Timmy" types at those matches exacerbate that, but I do see some of that at USPSA matches too (and saw some of it at Steel matches too). However, most of the people I have shot with, in both sports, are having fun, trying to do well and get better, and willing to help each other out.

Since you, and PPGMD, are exponentially better shooters than I am, part of my view of the two sports probably comes from certain things being more common at little matches I go to vs. bigger matches you guys shoot. With no prizes or money being awarded even the local minor "celebrities" don't have much incentive to get silly, and maybe that means I don't see some of the nonsense that would go on at the big events. I would also hope some of the "tactical Timmy" stuff would be kept in check at a big IDPA match where those guys are up against the top people.

I will say this, if USPSA disappeared from existence tomorrow, I'd be going to the IDPA matches instead. Both provide a great opportunity to shoot more, and much differently than I can at work, or even on the rare occasions when I can practice on my own.

Jerry, I'm sorry those few seem to have really spoiled your taste for USPSA. Hopefully you'll come to enjoy it again some day.

I've been doing it since 2008, and I really enjoy the variety in the stages you can encounter. From accuracy-intensive to hoser to speed shoots, you get a lot of variety. Not to mention the different targets (clamshells, swingers, drop-turners, max traps, stars, plate racks, etc). I have experienced the pain of the local "super squad" that spends way too much time on walk-throughs. Primarily because they are viewing the local match as a training session for a larger one, rather than treating it as a match unto itself. It is truly frustrating to have your match last an hour or more longer than it should because you got stuck behind those guys. Thankfully, I don't encounter that too much anymore.

My USPSA club also hosts Steel Challenge matches. I like those mainly because it's the only time I get out to shoot my .22 anymore. Since there are only 8 stages to choose from, there's not much variety there, but it does help you focus on 1 shot/1 hit.

I tried one IDPA match. I actually came in third overall, which surprised the hell out of me, since I'm only a B class USPSA shooter. The main problem I had with it was that it took about the same amount of time as a USPSA match with only 2/3 the number of rounds required. I guess it could just have been that match or maybe even just that particular day, but it was a little far to go (geographically) for less shooting. I think there's another club north of town that I might try one day.

We also have a club down here called American Action Shooting Association (AASA). They set up much simpler stages than USPSA, using only steel targets or colored paper, with a certain number of shots required per color. They are focused on getting new shooters into the shooting sports and encourage entire families to come out. The stages are usually symmetrical, and can be shot either "short course" (50 rounds for the match) or "long course" (100 rounds/match), so it still had a decent following when ammo was scarce. The matches are usually done by lunchtime, which is also nice. Even though they don't restrict mag capacity, I like to go to those matches with my 10-rd Production mags. It forces me to focus more on accuracy, since they usually have a lot of 10-shot arrays.

Since the mid 80s, I have had the chance to shoot many different types of matches etc...

USPSA, IDPA, PPC, Bullseye, Steel Matches, Bowling Pins, NRA Action Shoots, 3-Gun (to include participating in a S.O.F. match in Vegas in the mid-90s as part of my PDs team), C.O.P.S. Matches, and other assorted defensive pistol shoots.

Now a days, I get together with a group of 10 or so shooters once a month, we rent a bay at a local range to run some defensive pistol drills.