I've already had my G17 front sight, (properly installed with red Loctite) not be there twice in classes this year. One got knocked off in a Interior vehicle class, the other after a malfunction in close proximity to a target that got smacked with the gun to give me time and distance to get the gun back up and running.

Everything breaks if you train hard enough.

Far be it for me, to judge guys with more real world exp. than me.

quote:

Originally posted by pessimist:


That's fantastic.

What's more reliable, iron sights or glass? Simple question. You don't need to bend yourself into a pretzel avoiding the obvious answer.

If you're ok giving up some reliability in exchange for cool factor and hundredths of a second split times, that's fine with me. Just say so and stop pretending that there's no down side to your toy.

It's not about the splits but that's besides the point. Irons are more durable but not infallible. Cracked glass generally maintains visibility to see irons, heavily cracked glass can be punched out in the same amount of time it takes to remove a battered optic from an AR.
Do you question the use of optic with backup sights on rifles too?

Now, look at the first post of this thread, the pictorial part, and observe pistol having both, functional irons and RDS. What does that do to irons more durable argument of yours?

Is there a way to cover the optics while holstered without making presentation more difficult? I would think carrying one every day would lend itself to a lot of debris and gunk getting on the glass.
Is that a problem or am I overthinking this?

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
Is there a way to cover the optics while holstered without making presentation more difficult?

Yes, there are some red dot compatible duty holsters that keep the optic covered, like these Safariland holsters:

https://www.safariland.com/in-...ng-future-sight.html

On those, the top half of the optic hood is flipped forward as the levels of holster retention are unlocked, to then provide an unobstructed draw stroke.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
Is there a way to cover the optics while holstered without making presentation more difficult? I would think carrying one every day would lend itself to a lot of debris and gunk getting on the glass.
Is that a problem or am I overthinking this?

It depends on the holster. Some Safariland offerings do cover the optic.

However, I’ve found personally that it never fills up enough to obstruct using it, and that first time that it recoils it slings everything out of the optic.

I had questions about red dot durability until I went to a class on RMR's for duty pistols at IALEFI in May. I used a Trijicon Type 2 and it was a beast. I am now a believer

quote:

Originally posted by pessimist:

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:
Lol

I'll assume that's directed toward my comments. That's a very compelling argument you make. I'll have to reassess my position.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Please, tell us more about how some of the most elite shooters in US law enforcement don't know anything about handguns or optics.

Sure, but first answer a simple question. What's more durable and reliable, iron sights or a glass screen?

It wasn't supposed to be a compelling argument. You just make me laugh with your lack of knowledge. That's all.

I lack both the knowledge and concern to express an opinion as to reliability differences between painted metal and electro optics.

But I will say that STI is as tarted up as a Starbucks Caramel Ribbon Crunch Crème Frappuccino.

quote:

Originally posted by FHHM213:
I lack both the knowledge and concern to express an opinion as to reliability differences between painted metal and electro optics.

But I will say that STI is as tarted up as a Starbucks Caramel Ribbon Crunch Crème Frappuccino.

"Reiben, pay attention... Now this is the way to gripe. Continue."






Certainly flashier than their previous duty pistol, which was the more plain Springfield Professional railed 1911.

quote:

Originally posted by car541:
That’s one John wick movie too far.

The agency issued fancy 1911 trend died a painful death for a good reason. I will give it a year before they go back to Glocks.

I know of at least one. sheriff’s department in my state that has been using 1911s for 20 years or so. About 3 years ago, they turned in their Series 1 Kimbers for new 1911 Kimbers with a rail. I know the department’s gunsmith and he is as high on the new Kimbers as they were on the old ones.

I’m not saying that you are wrong in general but there will always be outliers that will buck the trend.

quote:

Originally posted by FHHM213:
But I will say that STI is as tarted up as a Starbucks Caramel Ribbon Crunch Crème Frappuccino.

I suspect you have not shot an STI 2011. They are pretty amazing pistols -- great feel, great accuracy.

I suspect you have not shot or fondled higher-end 1911 pistols. They are pretty amazing pistols -- great feel, great accuracy. Many who chose to own these expensive firearms want them to look different than a Hi-Point, or similar price-line pistol. Although there are plain-Jane looking 1911s, there are many "fancy looking" pistols from the likes of Nighthawk, Wilson, Cabot, Brown, and Volkman.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
I suspect you have not shot an STI 2011. They are pretty amazing pistols -- great feel, great accuracy.

I suspect you have not shot or fondled higher-end 1911 pistols. They are pretty amazing pistols -- great feel, great accuracy. Many who chose to own these expensive firearms want them to look different than a Hi-Point, or similar price-line pistol. Although there are plain-Jane looking 1911s, there are many "fancy looking" pistols from the likes of Nighthawk, Wilson, Cabot, Brown, and Volkman.

You’re exactly right. It is human nature to want others to clearly know that our particular belongings are “high end”. It explains the grotesquely-styled, latest Lamborghini driven by a Palm Beach realtor. And it also explains the half-ragged / half-tuned Civic driven by Johnny, the pizza delivery boy. (And by the way, Johnny’s Civic costs as much as those high-end pistols you list. So, perhaps a bit less elitism is warranted here?)

Long story short, I didn’t question the STI’s functionality. I simply expressed an opinion that it looks silly.

Arguably the best platform for fast accurate lead delivery paired with an effective low recoil round....sprinkle in a high cap mag and a very effective sighting system.

Yes please, if I have was a hostage these are the type of pistols I want the cop to be using.

I keep thinking I need a hi-cap 1911 in 9mm, commander length..

quote:

Originally posted by HayesGreener:
I had questions about red dot durability until I went to a class on RMR's for duty pistols at IALEFI in May. I used a Trijicon Type 2 and it was a beast. I am now a believer

I see you are in FL. Check out Hilton Yam over at 10-8 Performance. He offers a two day duty pistol oriented RDS class that I hear is awesome.

Shot my 2011 4" Tactical with 507c on 100 yard steel today. Insanely capable.

This certainly is an interesting development. With respect to them going with STI, it makes me wonder if they considered the Wilson EDC X9 as it seems to be a similar spec'd pistol. I am well aware of STI's dominance in the competitive world and it's certainly a feather in their cap to have a contract like this one.

I will say from my personal experience, I normally consider STIs as competitive pistols and not duty pistols. My Eagle 5.0 in .45 is a great gun but it has what you might call "personality". 11rnd mags actually hold 10rnds. Upon ejecting an empty magazine, the followers love to jump past the feed lips. (not that it ever caused a malfunction) And, it took a little tweaking of the magazine latch to get it to stop dropping magazines under recoil. Those were all well known STI "personality traits".

Naturally, one would assume that in the many years since my Eagle was made STI would have surely refined the platform. That's what I tended to believe myself. I've handled a number of STIs over the years and I've noticed a couple things here and there that would have me shy away from them. The last Staccato I looked at had ambi safeties, which I personally can't stand on a 1911 and worse yet, the thumb safety was mushy and indistinct, to the point that I wouldn't trust it to stay on safe while holstered. That's something I've also noticed on some single stack STIs I've handled in the past.

I'm sure STI can dial them in fine and I would hope the new generation mags are an improvement. Don't get me wrong, I like STI guns, and there are a couple I wouldn't mind adding to my collection. But at the end of the day I just don't know how reliable they might be long term.

People say that these high speed professional operators need a better alternative to a Glock. But I have to wonder, how other similar Special Ops units in Europe seem to do pretty well with their Glocks. Maybe they focus more on carbines for critical hostage situations?

At any rate, I hope they work out well. It might be interesting to see if they keep these pistols long term or switch to something else down the road. In the meantime, STI should get some great feedback to keep improving their products.

quote:

Originally posted by BB61:

quote:

Originally posted by car541:
That’s one John wick movie too far.

The agency issued fancy 1911 trend died a painful death for a good reason. I will give it a year before they go back to Glocks.

I know of at least one. sheriff’s department in my state that has been using 1911s for 20 years or so. About 3 years ago, they turned in their Series 1 Kimbers for new 1911 Kimbers with a rail. I know the department’s gunsmith and he is as high on the new Kimbers as they were on the old ones.

I’m not saying that you are wrong in general but there will always be outliers that will buck the trend.

We have about 200 1911’s in service today (several brands are an option on a list of approved, personally owned pistols). That number was over 500 ten years ago, it has declined steadily since I started being a firearms instructor 20+ years ago.

The main reason for the decline is that they are higher maintenance than the more modern designs. Many guys who keep one on the books wear it to court, academy graduations, funerals and parades, but keep a simpler weapon for night shift etc.

Almost all of them like shooting them more, and shoot them generally better (score wise), but like the simplicity of the Glocks, M&P’s, sigs, berettas, etc for everyday work.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Hahahahaha. SOG are know if all’s.

You forgot the ermaghad it might fog over panic. (Or pick another fake argument from the flat earth)

The tired “which is more reliable” tripe is about as dumb as “shotguns are superior to carbines because they can breach doors” nonsense.

We had some old flat earthers at the academy who used all the same arguments. When asked if their daughter was held hostage and about to be killed, would you want the sniper using iron sights “because reliable” they start blubbering in search of another BS platitude. Some people just refuse to evolve.

It’s cute that people think they know better than the guys actually doing this as what works and what doesn’t. They could save so much money to search internet gun boards for their answers instead of actually putting in the work.

Didn't we go through this in another thread? I've been to many matches and have witnessed, first hand, top level shooters occasionally stumble finding the dot on presentation or lose the dot during a course of fire. These are guys that shoot at least 500 rounds a week. They don't sit at their keyboard all day like other people. It doesn't happen to them often but it does happen to EVERYONE (except you apparently).

We'll put aside the times their battery died or they forgot to turn the unit on.

Aren't you an instructor or an operator or something or other? You've never seen any of this happen? How's that possible? I know, it's a training issue. I guess 500+ rounds a week just isn't enough and they should put in more time like the typical leo does.

quote:

Shot my 2011 4" Tactical with 507c on 100 yard steel today. Insanely capable.

Shot my surplus Romanian Tokarev with stock irons at 100yds last month... Insanely capable pistol.

While I think that those who have to do the job, should have whatever equipment they choose, to do it, I am amused by the arguing over high tech vs low tech.

I am remimded of an LAPD S.I.S. member, who put down half a dozen armed felons.....maybe more than that....won the medal for a particularly tough hostage rescue in a vehicle.

Anyways, his favored guns were a 4506-1 and a 3 inch model 64. When asked what was important in a handgun, his reply was "...simplicity. A good trigger and sights you can see."

And he had been there done that numerous times. Regards 18DAI