quote:

Originally posted by cas:
Fussy expensive magazines.... I dunno.

The current mags are about $50 which is comparable to HK and other Duty grade gins.

STI has also recently outsourced production of the mags like most other gun companies do. The new mags don’t need to be tuned like the old STI made ones.

Also, at least some of the “fussy” rep for 2011 mags comes from competition shooter trying to get extra capacity.

These guys shoot the hell out of their pistols. They also hunt some of the most dangerous humans on the planet. If they get a warm and fuzzy from the new pistol I am all for it. It will be interesting to see how the guns hold up.

I also predict that within a few years we will be seeing a move back toward bigger calibers, but that's just my opinion based upon historical trends.

Ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by car541:
That’s one John wick movie too far.

The agency issued fancy 1911 trend died a painful death for a good reason. I will give it a year before they go back to Glocks.

(Disclaimer. I don’t have any great affection for glocks and often carry my own 1911 at work, but for issue these fancy custom shop double stack guns are a nightmare. Also, the performance difference between these fancy guns and a standard service pistol is unnecessary and unusable in environments where target and threat identification are the dominant factors in the engagement timeline. They aren’t fighting an army of assassins, they are trying to figure out if some dude 10 feet away is reaching for a gun, a crack pipe or his cigarettes)

Yep

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
They probably just figured out they can get the taxpayers to buy their new USPSA carry optics pistols.

And yep


I have to question the judgment and skill level of anyone that would go into harms way with a mall ninja gizmo atop their handgun. OK for fun and games, not so much for a life and death struggle. When the glass gets cracked, wet or smeared with mud/dirt or whatever during a fight, what are they going to do? Call time out? All they can do is point-shoot with their toy.

Not all “progress” is good. These things aren't even close to being as reliable as iron sights and reliability is king.

Lol

Please, tell us more about how some of the most elite shooters in US military and law enforcement don't know anything about handguns or optics.




For those unfamiliar with USMS SOG, they're basically the Delta Force/Navy SEALs of federal law enforcement, alongside FBI HRT and a few other federal LE special operations units. These are several steps above the "normal" federal or local tactical/SWAT teams, with many members being former .mil spec ops themselves.

STI is getting a lot of love lately. I wonder why?

Some would say its overdue - Wilson made a real-world rep out of its gaming capacity years ago. Maybe it's got something to do with STI's being experienced with mating pistols to the new darling of the tactical set, pistol-mounted optics?

quote:

Originally posted by HCM:

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
Fussy expensive magazines.... I dunno.

The current mags are about $50 which is comparable to HK and other Duty grade gins.

STI has also recently outsourced production of the mags like most other gun companies do. The new mags don’t need to be tuned like the old STI made ones.

Also, at least some of the “fussy” rep for 2011 mags comes from competition shooter trying to get extra capacity.

As a fussy competition shooter, I haven't found the gen 2 mags to be an upgrade over the gen 1 mags... even in stock form.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryanp225:
They probably just figured out they can get the taxpayers to buy their new USPSA carry optics pistols.

that's an open gun from the uspsa perspective. depending on barrel length, it might play in idpa carry optics division.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:
Lol

I'll assume that's directed toward my comments. That's a very compelling argument you make. I'll have to reassess my position.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Please, tell us more about how some of the most elite shooters in US law enforcement don't know anything about handguns or optics.

Sure, but first answer a simple question. What's more durable and reliable, iron sights or a glass screen?

Does that sand get in your mouth and nostrils?

Military special operations units have been using red dots on pistols for a bit now, as have law enforcement special operations units. Certain models, including the Trijicon RMR and Leupold Deltapoint Pro, have proven through extended trials and testing to be good enough for real-world use by these high-level units.

In fact, USSOCOM (the parent command for all US military special operations units) purchased 15,000 Trijicon RMRs last year, to equip the pistols used by special operations units.

Sounds like they're plenty durable and reliable.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Military special operations units have been using red dots on pistols for a bit now, as have law enforcement special operations units. Certain models, including the Trijicon RMR and Leupold Deltapoint Pro, have proven through extended trials and testing to be reliable enough for real-world use by these units.

In fact, USSOCOM (the parent command for all US military special operations units) purchased 15,000 Trijicon RMRs last year, to equip the pistols used by special operations units.

Sounds like they're plenty durable and reliable.

No no no no. Iron sights has been stacking them up like cord wood since Dubya Dubya Two. If it was good enough for grand pappy, it’s good enough for us. (Insert any other recycled excuse here. It’s the same hysteria we saw when rifle optics came on the scene)

These guys in SOG and JSOC are obviously fools for doing their own testing and not just consulting the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
Maybe it's got something to do with STI's being experienced with mating pistols to the new darling of the tactical set, pistol-mounted optics?

I'd say it probably has more to do with STI mating the 1911 to a double-stack frame with polymer grip.

Glock-style weight and capacity, with 1911-style trigger and handling.

Not what I'd want for run-of-the-mill LEOs who shoot 50 rounds once a year, but potentially a good choice for high end shooters.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Iron sights has been stacking them up like cord wood since Dubya Dubya Two. If it was good enough for grand pappy, it’s good enough for us.

Hell yeah! Iron sights and FMJ ammo.

"They all fall to hard ball" amiright?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
These guys in SOG and JSOC are obviously fools

Mall ninjas, even.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Military special operations units have been using red dots on pistols for a bit now, as have law enforcement special operations units. Certain models, including the Trijicon RMR and Leupold Deltapoint Pro, have proven through extended trials and testing to be good enough for real-world use by these high-level units.

In fact, USSOCOM (the parent command for all US military special operations units) purchased 15,000 Trijicon RMRs last year, to equip the pistols used by special operations units.

Sounds like they're plenty durable and reliable.

That's fantastic.

What's more reliable, iron sights or glass? Simple question. You don't need to bend yourself into a pretzel avoiding the obvious answer.

If you're ok giving up some reliability in exchange for cool factor and hundredths of a second split times, that's fine with me. Just say so and stop pretending that there's no down side to your toy.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Does that sand get in your mouth and nostrils?

No, that usually just happens to know-it-alls that always have their mouth open.

Iron sights are potentially slightly more durable than red dots. But how far are you wanting to take this? Spears are more reliable than guns, because they never jam. Should we toss all those firearms and go back to clubs and edged weapons because there's a slight chance they might fail?

No, because there's a level of accepted risk of malfunction/problem where they're still proven reliable enough for their intended purpose, with the pros outweighing the miniscule potential cons.

Despite your preconceived notions, these aren't "toys" that they're adopting on a lark just to look cool. These have been thoroughly tested and vetted, and serve a purpose. And believe it or not, to both the people actually utilizing them as well as many others, their expert real-world experience and testing outweighs your amateur armchair quarterbacking.

If this was only some podunk department of 4 officers slapping some new whiz-bang on their handguns, with nobody else giving it a second look, that would be one thing. I certainly don't advocate for adopting every little new thing that comes along. But when large numbers of the best and most experienced military and law enforcement shooters in the country thoroughly test something both in training and out in the real world, and then declare it good to go, I tend to pay attention.

Besides, iron sights aren't indestructible either. They can potentially fail too, by breaking, moving, getting covered in muck, etc.

Shit happens.

Hahahahaha. SOG are know if all’s.

You forgot the ermaghad it might fog over panic. (Or pick another fake argument from the flat earth)

The tired “which is more reliable” tripe is about as dumb as “shotguns are superior to carbines because they can breach doors” nonsense.

We had some old flat earthers at the academy who used all the same arguments. When asked if their daughter was held hostage and about to be killed, would you want the sniper using iron sights “because reliable” they start blubbering in search of another BS platitude. Some people just refuse to evolve.

It’s cute that people think they know better than the guys actually doing this as what works and what doesn’t. They could save so much money to search internet gun boards for their answers instead of actually putting in the work.

Mags are cheaper at govt price. Individual Mil/le price was $30 something? so I’m assuming govt contract price might be cheaper. Also, as ass backwards as my department is, we just started approving pistol optics.