I think the biggest unintended consequence of the Clinton era magazine restrictions and assault weapons ban was the shrinking of carry guns. In essence it started us in the journey toward the micro 9. If I can only have ten rounds of 9mm then why not have ten rounds of 40 in the same sized gun. By that token, is 8 rounds of 45 better than 10 rounds of 9mm or 40.

My progression went from 9mm to 45acp to 40s&w to 357 Sig over the 33 years of carrying concealed and I am back to 9mm. A lot driven by firearms and a lot driven by training. Once I got serious about training and starting taking classes at least annually it was more about my capabilities than the weapon. In one of the classes I took, and instructor said, “you shoot the smallest weapon you can shoot effectively. You need to be proficient and the other guy just has to get lucky”. At the time I was carrying a normal sized P365 and I was honest that I didn’t shoot it near as well as a Glock 19. So back to a 19 I went and started training harder and testing different configurations of the P365. I eventually settled on the XL frame over a standard slide (X config now). I can shoot that almost as well as a G19 sized handgun in both accuracy and speed.

Now what killed the 40s&w IMO wasn’t the micro 9s it was officer qualifications. The qualification scores are way better with 9mm over 40s&w universally. Not in the how “I” perceive the recoil but in a timed/scored under stress scenario. The micro 9s are a result of capacity limitations and evolving technology.

When someone claims the .40 to be “superior” understand that there’s two things happening. The first is that they are speaking from an “on paper” perspective, and second they have extremely limited experience (if any) seeing humans shot with pistol caliber rounds. Caliber wars are the ultimate Fuddlore. All pistol calibers suck at shooting humans.

The .40’s death was largely due to being a solution for what wasn’t a problem. The FBI has money to throw at problems that they created through poor leadership and choices they make. The FBI’s caliber choices have driven LE for sure but it’s strictly been from a solution for poor leadership from top to bottom.

Micro pistols came about as a direct result of the caliber becoming more the standard.

I didn’t consider the Clinton era mag ban but that certainly influenced things, if you can’t have high cap, make the smallest gun you can around the 10 round limit.
Most micro 9’s of that era were also a ai and frequently purchased / used in 40
I would agree in full size guns the difference in recoil is negligible but I saw a huge improvement in my accuracy and speed ( and shooting comfort) when going from a glock 27 to a 26.

So there are lots of things that influenced the emergence of the micro 9

A well placed round will get the job done. With that being said I recognize certain rounds accomplish different things. I love the .45 but they are heavy and pull my pants down. .9mm, .38 and .380 are all good to carry.
I think the versatility, reliability and effectiveness of the .9mm is pretty unmatched though. Time keeps showing this more and more as the technology advances. I say buy them all and shoot them. They are all fun.

So, no.

The Sig 938 was introduced in 2011. That gun precipitated most of the really slim 9mm pistols that followed. If you remember, the 938 is a slightly upsized version of the 238 (.380), which itself was a pretty close knockoff of the colt mustang from the 1980's

The mustang was unique among small 380's in that it was a locked breach pistol, most of its comtemporary 380's (PPK, Beretta 81/86/84, PPK) were blowbacks. When Sig lengthened the locked breech 380 slightly to accomodate the 9mm (remember the 9mm cartridge is only 4.7mm longer that a 380, 29.69mm vs 25mm OAL) it wasnt a huge change in geometry, but it was a huge change in pressure and energy, I figured the guns would shoot themselves to pieces (similar to many early 9mm's modified to take .40 S&W).

But I was completely wrong, the 9mm locked breech thin slides actually work and hold together.

After the 938 actually worked, I think the die was cast to get a bunch of 9mmm subcompacts (the S&W M&P shield was introduced the next year, followed by the G43, etc), since they are so suited for carrying around all day.

The point of all of this is that during the time this was happening (2011 and 2012), the TX DPS, the Houston Police, and The Oklahoma HP and many lesser agencies like USMS, the FBI and ICE were all still using 357SIG and .40 S&W's.

The cops switching to 9mm was for 3 reasons:
1: Training with a 9mm is easier, especially with less experienced and smaller shooters (this is why NYPD and LAPD never went to 40 in the first place)
2: 40 beats up guns
3: Penetration through barriers, especially auto glass(the defining characteristic in the ammo test regimen) is as good with a 9mm as a 40 when you use a high end bonded JHP, so why bother with the lower capacity, higher recoil, higher cost ammo that causes more armorer repairs.

The .40 started dying when red dots on carry guns started becoming popular. Red dots have their hands full just holding up to 9mm.

This is a great question. Thanks to OP. IMO, the progression went like this:
-states started passing concealed carry laws that "allowed" people carry
-millions of citizens started buying guns to carry and realized that its actually hard to conceal carry but gets easier the smaller you go
-gun companies started the cycle of trying to beat the other with the smallest, most powerful, most reliable pistol I revolver
-citizens started buying and shooting each new entry into the market
-citizens started realizing that its way easier to shoot these "new" small carry guns in 9mm rather than .40
-companies started making 9mm more effective
-.40 starts to fade
This is a perfect model of capitalism and supply\demand as it applies to the gun and ammo industry

Don't know that I see a correlation.

...if there were no .40 "death", would we all have micro .40s?

Uh no.
There’s always been compact 9mms even before there was a .40 or 10mm.
Harken back to the 70s Garcia then later Interarms was importing the excellent Star series of pistols. You had your choice of all steel or aluminum frame (BM,BKM,BKS) in 9mm with an 8 round capacity.
80s saw the various compact versions of full size 9mm pistols, the S&W 469, Beretta 92C, SIG P228, etc. wasn’t until S&W hit upon chopping their full size 3904/06 to the 3914/13 that something clicked.
Later we would see the beginning of the micro 9 in Kahr, Colts DAO 9mm compact and eventually what’s out there today.
I will note though you can still get pistols of equal size to todays micro 9s in .40 and a little bigger .45. Will we see the stack and half .40 or .45? You never know.
Dale

Yep we always had compact 9's but there is a big difference between a compact 9mm and the micro 9mm.
And don't forget the other elements expanded concealed carry

Ammunition improvement, along with the introduction of the patrol rifle removing the concerns of miami 1986. We'll see a department adopt the 365fuse as it's duty gun sooner rather than later.

quote:

Originally posted by longjohn:
Yep we always had compact 9's but there is a big difference between a compact 9mm and the micro 9mm.
And don't forget the other elements expanded concealed carry

Yes especially in CCW laws and jurisdictions that allow the carrying of a handgun.
And yes there a different but not that big, not when one can remember the ASP, Devel, and La France NOVA 9mms from the custom smiths of the 70s and early 80s.

As for what caused the .40 to fall from grace, politics, affirmative action hiring, lack of training on the individuals part, and a lot of twisting of words. Plus the BS from the YT gun community and that the boffins at the Bureau can do no wrong, when it was them who started all of this nonsense!
Dale.

I just want to know that if the .40 is dead then who keeps buying them and jacking the prices up? Went looking for a non railed 229 in .40 and almost died from the sticker shock

I think a lot of factors, but chief among them was the advancement of bullet technology.

The evolution of 10mm to .40 was in response to the weakness of the 9mm cartridges of the 80's. The '86 FBI Miami shootout laid more than a little blame on the Winchester 115 grain 9mm Silvertip's failure to penetrate. There were also complaints of heavy for caliber Federal 147 grain Subsonic 9mm Hydrashoks having good penetration, but failure to expand reliably when fired out of pistol sized guns. The round was really engineered to be fired out of longer barreled suppressed submachine guns. However the Federal 115 grain +P+ initially used by the Illinois State Police, had a good reputation for stopping bad guys, but was also considered pretty hard on guns.

So that said, .40 solved a lot of problems, but for most it still had a sharp recoil impulse, particularly in the 155 grain loads, (which in my experience shot the flattest, though I preferred 180 grain loads). I personally transitioned away from .40 S&W after shooting the caliber for 12 years. In 2011 I had to make the switch to 9mm, due to physical issues I was noticing in my right arm a year before making the transition. In fairness, I wished I'd made the transition 12 years sooner, particularly when in '99 a case of aluminum cased Blazer in 115 grain 9mm could be had for less than 100.

Ultimately to my point the death of the .40, resulted in manufacturers ability to get equivalent performance in 9mm cartridges, with reliable penetration, consistent expansion, and relatively lower recoil, with more rounds, and much more shootable to a wider base of shooters. Ultimately the FBI's adoption would be the death knell of .40, .45 G.A.P. (which was already on its last legs when introduced by Glock), and .357 Sig, (yes I know this one is personal for some here). Try finding major law enforcement agencies that still make any of the latter bullets standard issue. As of January 2024 North Carolina State Police are the largest agency still using .357 Sig as standard issue. The overwhelming standard issue pistol caliber in law enforcement is the 9mm in various weights.

So of course manufacturers have made smaller guns that can hold more bullets. Many of us here can remember when a 6 shot Colt Officers ACP was considered a solid concealment gun, and it was a behemoth by today's standards. A Seecamp .32 of the same era was considered a serious deep concealment gun if you could find one. Now we have guns like the Sig P365, the Springfield Hellcat, and the Shadow Systems CR920, that split the difference in size between the two concealment guns mentioned, chambered in a very manageable 9mm cartridge, and holding up to twice as many rounds as the latter two guns mentioned.

Personally in the 90's I carried a West German P220 in .45 ACP, backed up by West German P225 in 9mm. Both guns held 8 rounds in the mag, (I used the updated follower in the P220 mags), +1. My Shadow Systems CR920 even with the +3 mag extensions, is smaller and lighter than the P225, and it holds 13+1, and is very accurate.

The reality, time and tech march on, and with the factors I mentioned, plus the expansion of both concealed carry laws, as well as 29 states with permitless carry, (in 1986 it was only ONE, Vermont), manufacturers were going to R&D, and meet demand.

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