After weeks if not months of reading and researching, I finally made it out to the range with a red dot sighted pistol. A lot of the research I did indicated that it is a steep learning curve for us old farts who have shot irons for years.

I decided that if I was in for a few hundred rounds of learning, why not go with a .22 to learn with. Ruger came out with a new version of the Mk IV 22/45 that has a top rib drilled and tapped for the RMS pattern. So I justified buying a new pistol. Overall I like the Ruger, but I cannot get groups as small as I can with my Browning Buckmark that my dad gave me some 20 years ago. I think that may be the trigger and a Volquartsen upgrade may be in the future.

Then for a sight I went with a Holosun 407K X2 with 6MOA red dot. Not top of the line, but not entry level either. It's a direct screw in mount with no adapter plates. That said mounting was still a little bit of a PITA. Ruger includes removable locator pins. Those pins are slightly too high and mount the sight with a gap between the base of the sight and the top of the mountain rail at the front of the sight. The pins had to be filed down in order for the sight to sit flush on the rail. Co-witnessing of the iron sights is kind of there with only about the top 1/3 of the sights visible above the base of the sight.

So what did I learn today?

If you mount your red dot sight and the dot appears way to the right of the front sight post, guess what? Your initial shot group is going to be way to the right. Read a couple of different theories as far as, "Slaving" the dot to the irons vs. it really doesn't matter the two are totally different from one another. I went with the really doesn't matter school of thought. It took a couple of groups to get the windage on and when I did the dot was horizontally centered above the front sight post. Take the time before you shoot and at least adjust windage so the dot is centered above the front sight.

Bench shooting a pistol at 25 yards and trying to zero a red dot kind of sucks. Well maybe it wouldn't have sucked so bad if I actually had the proper equipment. Stitting on a stool that was too high, crouching to see the sights, and foam rubber block for a front rest was not an ideal combination, but I got it done. I started offhand at 10 yards and adjusted to get it close to center, then bench shot it at 25 to make final adjustments.

The dot amplifies every single slight movement. Frustrating watching the dot move around the bullseye, see it perfectly centered and thinking, "Oh shit take the shot now!" results in yanking the trigger and the shot going way left. It was only after I broke my shot process down into individual steps, relaxed and concentrated on making a slow, deliberate, straight back trigger pull that I was able to get groups bench shooting at 25 yards.

The dot brings any errors in technique to the surface real quick. Cant the pistol to the right and guess what? the dot zooms to the right of the sight's lens rather than being centered. Slightly off in the presentation and guess what? the dot's not visible in the lens.

It's not all frustration. After getting it sighted in, it was a hell of a lot of fun. Group size was close to what I usually get with my Buckmark. Whether that is the result of the sight itself or the proper technique that it encourages I'm still debating with myself. It's a great training tool in that it rewards proper technique. Distances of 10 yards and less I don't see much of a difference in groups or speed between irons and the red dot. At 25 yards, the red dot has a huge advantage in speed of alignment to the target. It's something new and definitely makes shooting fun on the level of plinking tin cans with a Red Ryder kind of fun.

Where to go from here I don't know. Lots of shooting and training with the Ruger. I think the next step in equipment will be mounting a red dot on my Shadow Systems DR920 (Gucci Glock 17) shooting it and doing some IDPA type events with it. As far as a carry gun with a red dot, I'm not there yet. First thing that's holding me back is just familiarity and practice with them. Second is wondering how much of a practical advantage they are. Third is thinking that for me a red dot may be more of an advantage on a woods carry gun like a 10mm than it would be on something I'd carry concealed around town.

So that's my rambling, hope it may be of help to others who are thinking of trying out a red dot sight.

Very good, glad you got it.

Whenever I slap a new dot on a pistol, I twist the screws until the bottom of the dot is just touching the front sight. If I remember, I pop a bore sight in it and fine tune it. Then, off to the range.
I zero it first (bench rest) at 25 yards to get the windage right.
Then I move the target in to my preferred zero distance (15 yards), bench it, and then tweak it to knock out the center X.
Quick, easy and I normally use 12 rounds or so to get it done.

Well I can’t speak about the new Ruger and it’s mount. It was probably made for their new optical sight so they tweaked it a little in their favor.
As for the dot sights themselves, it is a learning process. I took the plunge a few years ago and have helped friends see the light (pun intended).
Presentation is key, then a smooth trigger squeeze, which we all know we should be doing anyway.
The dot doesn’t need to be in the center of the window by the way, just covering what you want to hit.
I took an instructor class from Sig on how to use and teach these and that really opened my eyes. Maybe get some instruction if you’re still struggling with it after a while.
It is harder for us older iron sight guys to learn than new shooters, but I think it benefits us older eyes guys more than the kids.
Enjoy!

2000Z-71,

You are absolutely right about a red dot amplifying any mistakes one makes in technique. That is exactly what I learned with my P320C that came with a Romeo site. I personally like red dots for 'fun' shooting but I still have not drunk the kool-aid for them for self defense. You probably made a good choice going with 22lr for the learning curve....

I made the jump a few years ago after 30 years of practice without. Still working on it - but I will say it is better for my more mature eyes…

bcjwriter, AMEN!

A few years back, I noticed my groups were getting larger. Long story short- Boy-o-boy was I surprised when I used my cheaters to qualify with! I totally forgot about there being a front sight at the end of my pistol!

The Red Dot helps a lot! Like A LOT!!!!
I need my reading glasses to see the front sight clearly, yet with no glasses (or non magnifying/prescription glasses) I see the red dot (or triangle in the case of my Trigicon) super clear and crisp. Makes perfect sense for my duty gun.

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One of the things that I noticed about shooting with the RDS, it's not a miracle cure that's going to make you shoot better.
If you're a good shooter, you will see that dot jiggle like jello. You do notice all of the micro-movements on a RDS that you don't on the front sight.

One of the biggest things that puts a shooter ahead of the power curve is the ability to quickly get the gun up to their eye level and acquire their sights - be it front sight picture or the RDS.

I've watched novice shooters who spend about 35 minutes searching for the dot.

After many eye surgeries,I can still see 20/20 with glasses. In one eye.
One of my X-Esse (Sig Trailside) had a rail. So I installed a Primary Arms red dot. After two years I still shoot it no better. Have Irons, pretty good target sights on one and a dot on one.
Shoot them together, and which one scores better goes back and forth.
Installed a dot on my Model 41 and it scores about the the same. But like the balance better with a 5 1/2” barrel and dot compared to the original 7” barrel.
Prior to my last eye procedure I got where I could not see the dot very well. Lasering the scale off the lens restored the brightness.
But I feel shooting with a dot is like dryfiring with a bore sight. I should do much better with the help.
Might be my shooting skills. I limit the results at a lower level than the guns do.
Dialing in is easy, keep the tools in gun box. Tweak at the range when needed. The X-Esse requires removing the dot to clean and it always is off, no matter how close I try to put back in same place on barrel.

Just moved a batch of reloading supplies to another SIGforum contributor (Thanks for all suggestions on the "Reloading" page.) and have dumped the proceeds into my first red dot optical, a Romeo-X Compact. I was intending to mount it on my P365 Macro, but will more likely install it on one of my P322s, after reading these posts. The learning curve should be cheaper with a .22. I've been shooting iron sights for 50 years. No telling if the optical will transition to my EDC, but it should be a fun experiment.

Glad it's working out for you, OP. I definitely agree with your observation that it makes every little movement apparent. It really forced me to learn to accept my "wobble zone" and avoid trying to yank the trigger as the dot crossed my desired point of impact.

I think some of that frustration also stems from having a dot-focus...which is kind of the natural outcome of trying to shoot precise groups. It can be used effectively that way, but the real advantages come on the clock when you get to the point of using a target-focus...not having to deal with sight alignment as you transition makes for incredibly fast, accurate shots.

A trick I've found for working on target focus is to cover the front of the optic with tape. Then open both eyes, look at the target, and use the "Binden Aiming Principle" to superimpose the dot over your target. This encourages your brain/eyes to focus on the target instead of the dot, because the tape blocks your view through the optic. It's kinda fun, too, to see how your binocular vision will allow you to make accurate hits through the occluded optic.

quote:

Read a couple of different theories as far as, "Slaving" the dot to the irons vs. it really doesn't matter the two are totally different from one another.

This phenomenon was also hard for me to understand until I actually had a dot-equipped gun in front of me. The dot is parallax-free, so you don't need to visually slave it to the irons when shooting. The dot doesn't even need to be aligned in the center of the window...If you can see if over your target, and break the shot clean, the round will impact to point of aim. Mechanically, though, if the dot is properly zeroed to the same POI as your irons, if you visually align the irons, the dot should also align with the tip of your front sight post...so in that sense it is mechanically "slaved". This is useful for confirming that the zero on your optic hasn't drifted, and something I check on a daily basis on my carry gun....but I don't look at the irons or attempt to align the dot with them when shooting.

Don't worry about the angry bee effect. Your iron sights are moving around this bad or worse, you just can't see it. Figure out if your wobble zone is acceptable and apply a good trigger press. Don't try to ambush the center. By the time you see it centered, it's too late.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
A trick I've found for working on target focus is to cover the front of the optic with tape. Then open both eyes, look at the target, and use the "Binden Aiming Principle" to superimpose the dot over your target. This encourages your brain/eyes to focus on the target instead of the dot, because the tape blocks your view through the optic.

This is what I had to do with coworkers who were not getting the “focus on your target” and the dot will be there. Once I started taping off their windows, they seem to get it.

For now, I stuck one on a blue gun and leave it hanging on the wall with a target for them to practice with during roll call or downtime.