^^^ If it is supposed to be a sickle, one thing is for sure: that pistol is equipped with a hammer! All kidding aside, what I find interesting is that the magazine is long enough to accomodate a loaded 7.62x25 cartridge.

Doesn't bother me all that much that this is a MIC. Norinco is known and highly regarded for their take on the AK47. Those fortunate enough to one often treat them as highly prized possessions, easily the equal of anything that came out of Russia or former Soviet bloc countries. Being a MIC thing isn't nearly as horrid as it once was; hell, look at ALL of the electronics we now rely and depend upon and where they're sourced. Almost all of the BEST is now M.I.C.

As for patents: anything that SIG might have had on either the design or utility sides of the P220 (since the P226 spawned out of that earlier gun) has been expired for at least TWO DECADES. This Norinco may be 'guilty' for lack of originality, but it's no more "illegal" than the Tanfoglio, IWI Jericho, Sphinx/KRISS , Bren10 or Canik is to a Ceska Zbrojovka Model 75.

If it were available to us here in the U.S., I'd certainly consider getting one. But if that door were to ever open I would not be surprised if its price gains some poundage. Even people in China aren't that stupid, given what us "gun-crazed 'Mericans" are willing to pay these days for what should be dime-a-dozen AKs. Why should they wish to leave money on the table?

quote:

Originally posted by kaschi:
^^^ If it is supposed to be a sickle, one thing is for sure: that pistol is equipped with a hammer! All kidding aside, what I find interesting is that the magazine is long enough to accomodate a loaded 7.62x25 cartridge.

This would be another reason for gettin on for my collection.

quote:

posted by soggy_spinout
As for patents: anything that SIG might have had on either the design or utility sides of the P220 (since the P226 spawned out of that earlier gun) has been expired for at least TWO DECADES. This Norinco may be 'guilty' for lack of originality, but it's no more "illegal" than the Tanfoglio, IWI Jericho, Sphinx/KRISS , Bren10 or Canik is to a Ceska Zbrojovka Model 75.

The CZ75 was a based on the P210 but had a proprietary DA trigger, which was not protected correctly. This was the reason for all the clones showing up relatively soon after its appearance on the market. The SIG firing pin safety was protected. This was the reason why they had the lead with their SA/DA pistols for so long. I think it's a difference, althoug it does not matter anymore. It only would if SIGArms would have protected the distinctive look of their pistols, which they did not as we know from close designes like the Astra A80, Zastava 99, Walther P88 or this Norinco.

We dont have to like Chinese made product. But if we call it junk or counterfeits, we should consider tu use a similar benchmark for all other pistols using construction details of other models. The P38 and the Beretta92, or the W+F Model 47 and the HK P7 or the P220 and the P88 would be fine examples to start with.

It needs a knockoff short reach trigger and a knockoff E2 grip.

quote:

Originally posted by lechiffre:
It needs a knockoff short reach trigger and a knockoff E2 grip.

I hate both of those with the fury of a thousand suns. Not everyone has tiny little hands. I suspect the grip on this one is wider due to the longer Tokarev round.

I'd be afraid of getting my hands blown off by this Chinese junk blowing up, that's a pretty hot and high pressure round isn't it?

It's kinda hard to say. I just got a Yugo M57 in and I was looking at data. Reported velocities are all over the map. The 12th Edition of Cartridges of the World describes a factory load as driving an 87 grain bullet at 1390 feet per second. I've seen one gunrag article (you have been warned) online that claims velocities of 1600 feet per second without stating a bullet weight, but that seems to be very much an outlier. Then again, the Prvi Partizan website claims a muzzle velocity for an 85 grain bullet at 525 meters per second, which the internutz converter says is 1722 feet per second (no mention of barrel length, and the PPSh is not unknown in the land that Tito left behind). http://www.prvipartizan.com/search_hb.php?id=A-147. The Vihta Vuori manual lists a pretty high velocity for a bullet of the same weight but their data uses both .309" and .312" bullets, which I have to admit leaves me a little nervous about cooking with their recipes for this cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
I'd be afraid of getting my hands blown off by this Chinese junk blowing up, that's a pretty hot and high pressure round isn't it?

You do realize the Chinese are probably the most knowledgeable with that round outside of Russia right? Would you say the same about the Norinco Mak90 or their 1911’s? If Sig could get away with it, and the same Chinese factory cut them a better deal for shitty MIM parts (currently made in India) do you really think they wouldn’t jump at the chance? I owned a milled Chinese Mak90 and it wasn’t probably one of the best AK’s I have ever shot including the $1300 Bulgarians.

Zastava supposdly was working on introducing a polymer framed multi caliber auto similar in size to a SW M&P, and one of the chamberings was to be in 7.62 Tokarev.

I have 2 Yugo M57s that have taught me a healthy respect for that cartridge. Its what I carry, when I can't carry a rifle.

As for the Chinese clone, since we in the US will never see one, I will hold judgement until I can examine one.

^^^ +1 ^^^ Since the 80s, I've owned several Chinese made Norinco and Poly Tech guns which include a Legend AK, a Model 84S AK, a MAK 90 AK, a SKS, a Makarov Type 59, a Tokarev Type 54 and a JW-15 22 bolt rifle. They have all given great service.

7.62 Tokarev is an excellent round, shoots flat and punches through a lot. Like Nazis on the Eastern Front wearing a lot of clothing.

Would love a reliable, well built single stack SA/DA or 1911 about an inch wide with a 4" or 5" barrel for CC.

quote:

Originally posted by Dusty78:

quote:

Originally posted by lechiffre:
It needs a knockoff short reach trigger and a knockoff E2 grip.

I hate both of those with the fury of a thousand suns. Not everyone has tiny little hands. I suspect the grip on this one is wider due to the longer Tokarev round.

Whoever designed the short reach trigger deserves to be punched in the nuts, repeatedly every few weeks to months when he is least expecting it.

Oh yeah back to topic, no thanks. I'll stick to my SIGs, QA, over hyping, and production problems and all. I've only had problems with one ever and SIG fixed it at no cost to me. You think the knock off company will?

quote:

Originally posted by abnmacv:
7.62 Tokarev is an excellent round, shoots flat and punches through a lot. Like Nazis on the Eastern Front wearing a lot of clothing.

Would love a reliable, well built single stack SA/DA or 1911 about an inch wide with a 4" or 5" barrel for CC.

You would probably like the CZ 52.

I'd like a P220 Match even better.