quote:

Originally posted by mcltc:
-Bruce

a new member here who asks an innocent question about anything SIG, shouldn’t have to suffer though pages of SIG-hating bullshit from Glock fanboys, OCD collectors and malcontents to get a factual answer.

As one who seeks out people to help as an article of my faith and commitment to this community who did so much for me and my company, I’m about out of patience for it.

-Bruce[/QUOTE]

One of the strengths of this forum is that there are people like Bruce here who offer good, reliable, and timely information. Sigfreund’s disconnector posts are another example of why this isn’t just a fanboy site, but a resource to enthusiasts. Thank you all for your contributions[/QUOTE]

Once again, you humble me with your kindness. I’m blessed by your friendship.

Sigfreund has been a role model for me, in the even and generous manner with which he provides accurate information to the Members. Thank you, old freund! ❤️
I shall strive to regain the patience and forbearance for all, which I value in others I love and respect.

Maybe I take myself too seriously sometimes.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Rather than looking for notches, finished or unfinished, an easier way to determine whether a P320 has been “upgraded” is to look for the new style disconnector in the fire control unit, and which I assume the older M17s also have.

With a little imagination, the current disconnector looks somewhat like a bird’s eye and beak. It extends up from the sear housing just in front of the right rear FCU rail.





A drawing:






Older schematics of the sear housing do not show the current part:

Thanks for that.

Very helpful.

As usual.

A very legitimate question by the OP, too.

The military pistols were "drop safe" from the outset. It was part of the testing protocol, and the modifications that became part of the "upgrade" for civilian P320's was always part of the military pistol.

That was a big source of the unrest when Sig finally admitted the problem. Sig denied it until over a dozen different videos appeared on youtube, showing the pistol could be set off by striking the rear of the slide with a mallet, dropping it, tapping it, or otherwise hammering the pistol (think standing up from a table, rapping it on the underside of the table, while in the holster).

The whole point back then was that Sig knew the problem all along, and had put the "fix" or the "upgrade" in the military pistols from the outset. At the same time, they continued selling pistols without fix to the civilian market until overwhelming pressure forced them to admit the problem and to "upgrade."

The military pistols always had it. The reason that the "fix" came about so quickly was that Sig already had it: all they did was modify the civilian pistols to match what they were already doing to the military pistols. Sig admitted this. It's old news, now.

A few months ago I sent my last P320 back for "upgrade." Sig agreed to change sights, and make a few other changes while there. Then they balked; the FCU was originally in an RX model, and unless they got the original pistol back, they didn't want to work on it or do the upgrade. What I sent them was a subcompact. They finally did the "upgrade," but didn't get any of the other things done.

"Upgrade" is spin talk for fixing a problem Sig was already aware of, and had already fixed in the military models. "Upgrade" meant bringing civilian models up to the sand standard as the military version.

Bruce Gray, love your posts in this thread. You are so right on and verbalized it so much better than I ever could have.

Kudos to Bruce Gray!!!!

My personal opinion is the military trials showed them to not be drop safe, hence they had the upgrades.

Or they were somehow designed 'differently' to be drop safe, or something like that.

But my opinion is in line with what sns3guppy posted above.

I do not think drop safe was on their radar. Let’s be honest, until the internet got involved with

21 degrees? Nope
22 degrees? Nope
23 degrees......

The original trial guns had the heavier trigger. The legacy 320 guns, to this day, still pass the drop safe standards of that time. While people want to complain, to this day that goes largely ignored.

I think the change in design fixed a different issue. And coupled with a lighter trigger, the disconnector fixed the whole drop safe thing..

I think one had nothing to do with the other.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I do not think drop safe was on their radar. Let’s be honest, until the internet got involved with

21 degrees? Nope
22 degrees? Nope
23 degrees......

The original trial guns had the heavier trigger. The legacy 320 guns, to this day, still pass the drop safe standards of that time. While people want to complain, to this day that goes largely ignored.

I think the change in design fixed a different issue. And coupled with a lighter trigger, the disconnector fixed the whole drop safe thing..

I think one had nothing to do with the other.

I'm confused here.

What different issue are you speaking of other than insufficient drop safety?

Prior to the upgrade, there were many reports of P320s “blowing up”. Each time, it was blamed on bad ammo.

Since the upgrade, all the “bad ammo” complaints have mysteriously gone radio silent.

I’ve personally observed 5 guns detonate. I’m convinced that the guns fired out of battery. I’ve been told time and again it is “impossible” for the guns to fire out of battery. With the disconnector (upgrade), yeah I agree.

Each time the damage was the same. Magazine blown out, grip module cracked from the front frame rail to serial number slot, the extractor blown out. I saw two blow in one class. Different types of factory ammo.

Two of the guns I witnessed blow are forum members here I know for sure. Another was a early 320 compact I owned that I loaned to a student. The other two might be forum members here.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Prior to the upgrade, there were many reports of P320s “blowing up”. Each time, it was blamed on bad ammo.

Since the upgrade, all the “bad ammo” complaints have mysteriously gone radio silent.

I’ve personally observed 5 guns detonate. I’m convinced that the guns fired out of battery. I’ve been told time and again it is “impossible” for the guns to fire out of battery. With the disconnector (upgrade), yeah I agree.

Each time the damage was the same. Magazine blown out, grip module cracked from the front frame rail to serial number slot, the extractor blown out. I saw two blow in one class. Different types of factory ammo.

Two of the guns I witnessed blow are forum members here I know for sure. One of them was a early 320 compact I owned that I loaned to a student.

Very interesting.

Some years ago on another forum accusations of OOB firing were made and we tried our best to envision how that could happen.

It's easy enough to remove the mag, clear the weapon and move the slide back in slow increments, attempting to pull the trigger until the sear releases. In each and every case with the pistols we tried, naturally, the hammer/striker could only ever be released while the locking lug was bearing on the locking shoulder. Obviously that is a primary function of engineering in a modern pistol.

So if the pistol DOES fire OOB, there must be a mechanical explanation for it, and logically, such a mechanical process *should* be capable of replication.

What say ye to this argument?

Mechanical is possible. However, my personal experience is that none of the casings showed any signs of over pressure from a bad load. It has to be mechanical, or under certain conditions the gun fires out of lock up.

Each time it occurred during rapid fire.

Either way, you’ll notice there has been zero complaints, rumors, or whispers since the upgrade.

I have zero worries about the guns firing OOB these days.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Mechanical is possible. However, my personal experience is that none of the casings showed any signs of over pressure from a bad load. It has to be mechanical, or under certain conditions the gun fires out of lock up.

Each time it occurred during rapid fire.

Either way, you’ll notice there has been zero complaints, rumors, or whispers since the upgrade.

I have zero worries about the guns firing OOB these days.

Thanks.

I've come to the conclusion that unless the gun can be gymnasticated into an OOB firing mode, it can't be done...unless there is another thing entirely going on which would explain it.
For example, high primers or maybe a stuck/hesitant firing pin tho in the case of the latter, it is hard to envision how it would occur BEFORE the locking lug engaged the slide locking shoulder.

If OOB firings occur, there HAVE to be mechanical means by which it occurs. Of course there could be a series of events that leads to such an occurrence, a series that is not self-evident to the guy who is trying to make one happen with an unloaded gun.

Anyway, your observations are really interesting, as are SIG's "upgrade" efforts which expose a problem even if they are not forthcoming with all the details of "How"...

Thanks.

I've had no problems with P320's, though all mine are now "upgraded," but I have had a kahr P40 and a S&W Shield both blow up in my hand when firing out of battery.

S&W has a history of denying warranty service when that happens, as the did on mine. When they could find no explanation for the problem, after examining the pistol in their "met lab," They denied the claim and I was told that it's standard fare to blame ammunition when they can't provide an explanation, and to deny the claim. Exactly what they did in my case, then said they'd "warranty" the pistol by selling me a new one at greater than retail cost.

Sig isn't alone in burying the bones.

Hi! I popped back in to cause more trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I do not think drop safe was on their radar. Let’s be honest, until the internet got involved with

21 degrees? Nope
22 degrees? Nope
23 degrees......

The original trial guns had the heavier trigger. The legacy 320 guns, to this day, still pass the drop safe standards of that time. While people want to complain, to this day that goes largely ignored.

I think the change in design fixed a different issue. And coupled with a lighter trigger, the disconnector fixed the whole drop safe thing..

I think one had nothing to do with the other.

So it's just happenstance that the M17's didn't have this defect - pure chance?

IMO, they knew and the M17s didn't have the issue and they magically had "the fix" for the civie ones. There was an interview that I can't find where there is some uncomfortable silence after one of the SIG reps stops talking when questioned about the M17.

In the end there is no proof or smoking gun, other than the ones the fired when dropped on their ass, but remember, it's condoning negligent gun handling by making a firearm completely drop safe, per Ron Cohen....

"Drop safe,” Cohen explained, “Those two words don’t exist together. No gun is drop safe. It’s a function of angle, height and surface. If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.”

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
"Drop safe,” Cohen explained, “Those two words don’t exist together. No gun is drop safe. It’s a function of angle, height and surface. If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.”

Yikes!

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:
"Drop safe,” Cohen explained, “Those two words don’t exist together. ...”

I hope that he is as embarrassed whenever he remembers that statement as I am for him whenever I read it.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I do not think drop safe was on their radar. Let’s be honest, until the internet got involved with

21 degrees? Nope
22 degrees? Nope
23 degrees......

The original trial guns had the heavier trigger. The legacy 320 guns, to this day, still pass the drop safe standards of that time. While people want to complain, to this day that goes largely ignored.

I think the change in design fixed a different issue. And coupled with a lighter trigger, the disconnector fixed the whole drop safe thing..

I think one had nothing to do with the other.

So it's just happenstance that the M17's didn't have this defect - pure chance?

IMO, they knew and the M17s didn't have the issue and they magically had "the fix" for the civie ones. There was an interview that I can't find where there is some uncomfortable silence after one of the SIG reps stops talking when questioned about the M17.

In the end there is no proof or smoking gun, other than the ones the fired when dropped on their ass, but remember, it's condoning negligent gun handling by making a firearm completely drop safe, per Ron Cohen....

"Drop safe,” Cohen explained, “Those two words don’t exist together. No gun is drop safe. It’s a function of angle, height and surface. If you build it completely drop safe, you legitimize mishandling. Inherently guns are not meant to be dropped, and are unsafe when dropped.”

I think it is/was. I can’t say what they did or didn’t know. But, I think they were chasing a different rabbit with the disconnector.

Just my opinion.

There has been zero instances of “bad ammo” since the upgrade.

Could very well be I guess. Just lots of random occurrences shrouded in mystery.

Jones, I had forgotten all about the “bad ammo” incidents. They have disappeared since the upgrade. All this speculation wouldn’t exist if Sig was upfront. If they said why the M17 pistols were returned, and the work performed on them, people wouldn’t assume the worst.

quote:

Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
Jones, I had forgotten all about the “bad ammo” incidents. They have disappeared since the upgrade. All this speculation wouldn’t exist if Sig was upfront. If they said why the M17 pistols were returned, and the work performed on them, people wouldn’t assume the worst.

I’m not trying to lay down cover for them. I’m just stating what I do believe the real reason was. It’s just my speculation.

Every manufacturer has their fleas from time to time. I carry and shoot guns from the big three and I don’t worry about it.. All have turned the spotlight around on themselves at one point or another. Glock had guns that failed to function when lights were attached to them. Smith and Wesson had dead triggers. It’s never handled as well as we’d like.