There is a place on the www called 1911 heaven, that has way more than a few Les Baer guns for sale. A bunch .

I am wondering if Bruce Gray has a similar website on the www for his creations ?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: bendable,

Indeed he does:

https://grayguns.com/

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
There is a place on the www called 1911 heaven, that has way more that a few Les Baer guns for sale. A bunch .

I am wondering if Bruce Gray has a similar website on the www for his creations ?

I doubt you understand the higher-end 1911 market.

1911 heaven is a website run by a Les Baer distributor. Les Baer is generally considered a semi-custom 1911 manufacturer. If I understand Les Baer's business model correctly, they do build true custom pistols, however most are built along model lines. Les Baer's model lines are described in the Les Baer website. 1911 heaven doesn't appear to describe or to include pictures of the Les Baer pistols it sells, but instead provides a link to Les Baer's site.

Bruce Gray builds full-custom 1911 pistols to customer specs. I do not believe he builds any "standard" pistol. I do not believe he generally has prior builds available for sale. I do not believe there are any distributors for Bruce's pistols. But Bruce is only a phone call or email away. Both options are listed in the grayguns website.

Bruce's guns are in an entirely different league than those from Les Baer -- Bruce's pistols are refined to a level I have never seen in a Les Baer. Not even close.

For what you're spending on a Les Baer, you can spend considerably less on a Dan Wesson and get as good, if not better, a handgun.

I wish there was a place that had a collection of photos from some of his high end work. Some of it is truly works of art.

I understand why one person may need a competition only gun or anther may require a daily carry gun.

And yet another may just want an off the shelf, casual shooter for 6 trips to the range per year.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: bendable,

So that I understand ,

Are you saying that if Mr.Gray ships out 20 guns in the month of June,
that there will be
almost no chance that there
will be two alike ?

There is no Gray Gun standard $3,300.00 .45 a.c.p P220 or Glock 21?

Because very very few customers want the same thing. (?)

The conversation appears to be about the 1911, not the Glock 21 or Sig P220.

The Les Baer 1911 refrance was used as an example only.

I guess my gist would be that
I am never going to walk in to agun retailer and see a shelf in the glass counter
with a dozen Gray guns on it.

(?)
Thanks for putting up with the newbie novice questions,

Just trying to learn stuff

GGI does a lot of gunsmith "tweaking" work on existing production guns. Things like trigger jobs, slide work, sights, finishes, extractors, complete action overhauls. Bruce and his team have worked on a few of my Sigs and 1911s. GGI work is outstanding.

Guns that GGI works on are still Sig, Colt, H&K, S&W, or whatever guns. They are just improved by GGI.

A custom build pistol -- such as a 1911 -- is a completely different animal. Actually, such a 1911 will almost certainly not say "Bruce Gray" on the frame, either. However, I do consider such a 1911 to be a Bruce Gray pistol. It has been a number of years, but I did talk to Bruce about his building a true custom 1911 for me. I never moved forward with such a build.

Bruce generally starts with a raw, unbuilt 1911 frame. It could be marked Colt, or another brand. Then Bruce and the customer discuss the options for the slide, trigger, hammer, grips, barrel, sights, safety, and whatever else. And how the metal will be finished. Such a 1911 will definitely NOT be a Les Baer production model, nor any other 1911 manufacturer's production model.

A gun enthusiast may go his entire life without seeing a GGI-built 1911 in a glass case at a LGS. And even if he does see one, the tag that describes the pistol may be the only way to tell it was truly built by Bruce.

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
The Les Baer 1911 refrance was used as an example only.

I guess my gist would be that
I am never going to walk in to agun retailer and see a shelf in the glass counter
with a dozen Gray guns on it.

I suspect you're right.

I attended one of Jerry Jones courses a few years ago, and I signed up, originally, largely because Bruce Gray was going to be there (and he was). I wanted to meet him. The course was great, well worth the time and one I wish I could repeat every year, but I went there to meet Mr. Gray.

It's hard to overestimate the contributions that he's made to Sig's offerings, I believe, and you'll find evidence of that (even copies, allegedly the sincerest form of flattery) all over. A shelf of Bruce Gray guns? Probably not. But you'll find a lot of guns at competitions and in homes and holsters with Bruce Gray parts and components, work done, etc.

Something unique about his business is that he's frequently out of things. Is it because he's a bad busienssman and can't keep up, or simply because his products are so much in demand that he can't keep them in stock? They sell out faster than they can be made, and it's common to be put on a waiting list or wish list, to get the part. The work his shop does is in demand, and the things they sell are in demand.

I've called there and bought a part right of Mike Grasso's desk, that still wasn't released...that's how much in demand things are there.

I have 3 P320F's that I shoot for matches; all of them have Grayguns fat guiderods, competition triggers, etc, and even the Grayguns sculpted TXG grip. I just put another sculpted grip on one of my Sigs. I'm not sure the parts and guns would stay in their facility long enough, let alone get to together and sent to a shop to sit on a shelf.

They're not a mass production facility.

If you are able to get through there, and talk to someone, it's someone who knows their product, and isn't part of an assembly line.

Bruce had mentioned how loyal his people are; the family-nature of the company, and I believe it, from my limited interaction there. What they produce is quality, does just what it says, and I don't think they have much inventory that sits for long.

Another aspect of what they do is that they make their trigger job (etc) available to the buyer to do themself. You certainly can send a firearm to Grayguns and they'll do it for you, but with a little patience, their kits are set up to be done at home, and to produce tuned results, whether its a short trigger or the competition trigger, and so forth.

In the case of a custom 1911, something done and tailored to the specific order of a customer, that's another matter, and it's done on demand, rather than churned out an an assembly line.

You don't see a lot of Grayguns pistols on the market; it would appear that people hang on to what they've got, which speaks volumes about how owners might regard the product. If one does crop up and is advertised as having had grayguns work done, then one knows it's quality.

The Legion pistols claimed Grayguns parts for a while, which certainly enhanced the offering.

I'd be willing to bet by show of hands that a LOT of posters here have Grayguns parts and components, or work done on their personal firearms. Probably as close as you'll get to a showroom.

There's always the Grayguns website.

There was a couple guys whose business model was buying/selling high end custom 1911s. I lost track of them years back but they would be more likely to have had a full custom Bruce Gray built 1911 in their inventory at some time (if they're still in business).

GGI did a 1911 several years ago for me. Absolutely perfect! I have 1911’s from all the usual suspects and the Gray Guns example hangs right there will all of them.

The front strap checkering on my GGI 1911 is the best in my collection. Their super black finish is a beautiful black too.

I highly recommend Gray Guns if you want a superb 1911.

Pics, dude! Pics!

I didn’t realize Bruce was building 1911s anymore. About 2 years ago I inquired about a custom 1911 and was told that there was a lot of backlog from other work and they would contact me if Bruce were to be able to build a 1911 for me again. I never heard back so I assumed that they just weren’t doing it anymore. A Bruce Gray 1911 would be a grail gun for me not only because of his talents but for his own involvement in and the involvement of those that he worked with in elevating the custom 1911 into what it is today. I have been interested in Bruce’s work going back to when he worked with Charlie Kelsey and a Gray Guns custom 1911 would indeed be a very special gun to me.

I know it's not a 1911. But as far as custom guns I remember seeing a long slide P7 posted a few years ago that was slick!

A true craftsman.

thanks for all your replys.

I guess I get it ( after an entire night of thought on the subject)

In the fast food industry ,
consistency is everything,
it's very easy to hire an extra dozen people to try and meet popular demand ,

but its very hard to control the quality and consistency when you do that .

why risk a compromise

it would make no sense for him to
hire a half dozen gunsmiths to make 15 -20 ,
$3,000.00 - $3,800.00
guns a month for the store shelves.

His Hardtail grip safety/solid beavertail just makes my little heart go pitty-pat.

I wonder what his balance of activity and income is, gunsmithing vs parts sales vs coaching.

The late John Gallagher was best known for his work on Ruger single actions but said his majority income was lightweight stainless and synthetic hunting rifles and his real pleasure was being able to squeeze in the occasional blue steel and walnut classic rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
For what you're spending on a Les Baer, you can spend considerably less on a Dan Wesson and get as good, if not better, a handgun.

I've got to disagree on this. You can get as good or equal cosmetics, but you aren't getting the same fitting. Slide to frame fit is similar, but a small part of the equation. I have taken apart more than a dozen DWs and have yet to find one with a properly fit barrel; it just doesn't happen on a production line. You won't find a 1911 with barrel lock up on the legs from Colt, Kimber, Springfield, you pick it, etc., either. It's not a ding against DW, it's just the way it is. It takes skill, time, and labor, which adds to cost to do it right, and you can't get it at that price point. Les Baer fits it pretty close, then tells the buyer to fire 1,000 rounds to "break it in," which means "lap it in," and lowers that price point up front. Nighthawk and some others charge a bit more up front and do the rest of the hand fitting to lap it in instead of telling the user they have to go buy and put 1,000 rounds through it to make it reliable.

quote:

Originally posted by US_P225:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
For what you're spending on a Les Baer, you can spend considerably less on a Dan Wesson and get as good, if not better, a handgun.

I've got to disagree on this. You can get as good or equal cosmetics, but you aren't getting the same fitting. Slide to frame fit is similar, but a small part of the equation. I have taken apart more than a dozen DWs and have yet to find one with a properly fit barrel; it just doesn't happen on a production line. You won't find a 1911 with barrel lock up on the legs from Colt, Kimber, Springfield, you pick it, etc., either. It's not a ding against DW, it's just the way it is. It takes skill, time, and labor, which adds to cost to do it right, and you can't get it at that price point. Les Baer fits it pretty close, then tells the buyer to fire 1,000 rounds to "break it in," which means "lap it in," and lowers that price point up front. Nighthawk and some others charge a bit more up front and do the rest of the hand fitting to lap it in instead of telling the user they have to go buy and put 1,000 rounds through it to make it reliable.

I agree with this. But at the same token the quality of the Les Baer exterior finish and need to break it in has always rubbed me the wrong way on the les baers. For the price difference I have skipped over them and went straight to an Ed Brown and a Wilson Combat.