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| Member |
So that other thread cost me some money. Pulled out my early (gen1?) P99 in 40 cal and decided I hated the stock sights. I was looking at the Omaha Outdoors site and discovered that Trijicon made some outstanding sights for the P99 that I never knew about, most of which were all sold out so I got the fiber optic version which was pretty good. My question comes from then going online and realizing that nobody "uses" the AS (anti stress) portion of the trigger apparently. I downloaded the manual and it seems to bear this out as well. For purposes of this question there are 3 trigger settings. DA which is full weight, full travel trigger, standard DA. Then there in the AS mode, light weight but full travel, and SA which is light weight and short travel of trigger. I would have sworn when I bought this gun 2 decades ago the idea and the manual both were in sync to load a round, the trigger goes fully forward, but the trigger pull is very light but a long pull through the 2 stages basically. Going on to the appropriate gun forum though and those guys, and the manual, are quite clear that they load a round into the chamber and then decock the gun and holster it in DA mode. They are adamant and the manual kinda agrees with that thought. If that is true then what the hell is the purpose of the AS setting? They all talk about the AS setting is like carrying a 45 cocked and UNlocked. Are they nuts or am I? It seems no different than carrying any Sig 320 but with a much longer travel trigger. I know the Glock isn't fully cocked but it seems as safe as that platform as well since the trigger travel is so long. Did they change the "rules" on me? Would you carry a P99 in AS (cocked but trigger forward) mode in a good holster that covered the trigger? I would but maybe I am missing something. All this reading really makes me want to get a 9mm version, maybe even that last edition one. | ||
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| Member |
I have wondered some of the same things. As a long time Walther P99c user, I only holster/carry it decocked. The long, light trigger pull mode is not a feature I use. Maybe others find it useful. When I bought it, there were very few subcompact, polymer, 10+ round DA pistols to choose from. DA was one of the mandatory requirements on my list. The fact that P99 pistols have nice triggers and don’t weigh a lot, were bonuses for me. I also like that it accepts a full size P99 magazine with the collar. But I digress. I look forward to reading your and others’ viewpoints. | |||
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E tan e epi tas |
Wife’s bed side companion for over 20 years. We’ve both always treated it as a DA/SA gun. I’ve tinkered with the anti stress setting but never preferred it, but I also don’t prefer “single action” strikers either. In reality it’s not any less safe than any of the current crop of “single action” strikers, that said I am a DA/SA troglodyte at heart so that’s how ours P99s have been used. "Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man." | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower  |
That's not true for any pistol with a safety blade (or tab) on the trigger- Glocks and all the imitators. This "antistress" stuff is nothing but marketing BS. The manual of arms for the P99 has never changed, from the first ones on the market, all the way up to today, although the introduction of the "AS" marketing silliness after the P99 had been around for years would lead you to believe otherwise. I would never chamber a round in a P99 and not decock it, any more than I would chamber a round in a 1911 and not apply the thumb safety (or lower the hammer). Would you chamber a round in a Beretta 92 and leave the hammer cocked? How about a SIG P22x-series pistol? Would you chamber a round in a P226 and leave the hammer cocked? Madness | |||
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| E tan e epi tas |
I don't disagree with the sentiment at all. Totally on board with it. That said its not all that different then say a P320. Both have around a 5lb trigger pull and no safety blade. I don't have a 320 to compare trigger travel but I suspect the Walther is longer in this regard. Again I WOULD NEVER SUGGEST carrying in the AS mode as I feel like Para above but I don't think its radically different then something like a P320. "Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man." | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
I don't own any P320s, because they don't have a safety blade on the trigger, and it is my opinion that if there is legitimacy to any of the countless lawsuits pending against SIG for these so-called "uncommanded" discharges in the P320, it is because the pistol lacks this basic safety feature. Again, it's like having a cocked, unlocked 1911, or a cocked Beretta 92 or P226. Mama didn't raise no fool. Anyone who has handled a P99 in "antistress" mode knows that the trigger being forward is nothing but an illusion of safety. It takes nothing, perhaps an ounce of pressure on the trigger and it moves rearward. My opinion is that when they introduced the P99, Walther never intended for the pistol to be consciously put into such a mode, and that it is merely an byproduct of having a DA/SA striker-fired system. After a few years, Walther decided "Why not?" and began marketing the pistol with this as an "antistress" mode. Ask yourself- since the operating system for the P99 has never changed, why did Walther wait several years before touting this byproduct as a nifty "antistress" mode? It's nothing but marketing, and it's surprising from a company like Walther, because it's unsafe. | |||
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| E tan e epi tas |
Same page. Totally agree. "Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man." | |||
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| Member |
A day late to the game, but I totally agree. I am pretty well-versed in the P99 and the AS function is NOT meant for carry. The P99 AS is meant to have the same manual of arms as the DA/SA SIG Sauer P-Series pistols we are all familiar with. As implied in the P99 user manual, the AS function only serves to give the gun a DA-length initial SA trigger pull (to mitigate the risk of an unintentional discharge) during any manipulation of the firearm that results in SA (outside of normal firing). This would naturally include 1) loading the firearm, 2) performing a press-check, and 3) preparing for (and performing) a field-strip. Notice that on your DA/SA SIG Sauer, all three of these actions result in a cocked hammer and a standard (i.e. short) SA pull. Which you would always safely decock with the frame-mounted decocking lever. Walther's thinking was that in a stressful situation (where even well-trained operators can be susceptible to poor trigger discipline) performing one of these three actions might result in catastrophe. Formerly known as tigerbloodwinning | |||
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| Member |
I agree that Walther started putting “AS” on the slide purely for marketing reasons. But I never even considered the possibility that this was just a normal byproduct of striker-fired DA/SA (i.e. a happy accident for Walther). I don’t think that I ever looked at the internals enough the last time I had one in hand to consider it. I’m actually looking at one tomorrow at my LGS, so I’ll look closer at the mechanism, but at the moment (even if just to play devil’s advocate), my thinking is that if what you say is true, then wouldn’t it enter AS mode whenever it was in SA? Formerly known as tigerbloodwinning | |||
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| Member |
Good info. I have had this thing in my safe for two decades without giving it much thought. Not my caliber, bad stock sights, so it sees zero use. After the sight change it is much better. I totally remember the “manual of arms” wrong apparently. Mine of course is pre AS nonsense. Still a great gun but not as interesting to me as I was thinking it was. Thanks for the talk, learned something. Before this I would have carried it cocked in a holster because it seems no different than a 320. I am rethinking this thought now. | |||
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| Peace through superior firepower |
It's better to say that it is a byproduct of this DA/SA striker-fired system. I can't speak to other such systems on other pistols, if they even exist. The way the P99 works is this- If you rack the slide, the striker is cocked and the trigger draws rearward and goes into single-action mode. If you then press the decocker, the striker is decocked and the trigger goes forward all the way. As you pull/press the trigger, you will feel the resistance of the striker being drawn rearward until the trigger is almost fully rearward and the striker will release. This feels like the DA pull of any number of DA/SA pistols. If there is a round in the chamber, the pistol will fire. This is the only safe way to have the P99 ready to fire a round. If the pistol is in DA mode and you retract the slide slightly - just enough to cock the striker- and then let it go into battery, the trigger will remain in the forward position. This is the so-called "antistress" mode. If you then put any rearward pressure on the trigger, you will feel almost no resistance as the trigger goes back and the trigger will then lock into single-action mode. A press of the trigger releases the striker and if there's a round in the chamber, it will fire. This is why the "antistress" stuff is unsafe, and a matter of marketing. In "antistress" mode, there is an illusion of safety. The trigger is forward, but it takes only an ounce or two of pressure on it to put the trigger into single-action mode. How is this safe? How is this in actuality any different than having any number of types of pistols in single-action mode with no manual safety applied? The fact that to put the P99 into this mode, a user has to manually draw back the slide to a roughly-specified degree tells you a lot. IIRC, the P99 manual says 3/8". Who measures this? No one, that's who. A P99 user just gets familiar with roughly how far they must retract the slide in order to enter this unsafe and useless mode. It comes down to a quirk in the system; when manually retracting the slide, the striker is fully cocked before the trigger is drawn rearward. I own a P99 made in 1997, one made twenty years later, and P99C made in 2016. All three of these pistols function exactly as I have described, so why wait until- what was it- 2006 to start hyping this "antistress" stuff? I think this "antistress" stuff was the elephant in the room for Walther, and after a few years of the P99 being on the market, Walther had gotten the question about this quirk in their pistol enough times to let marketing people capitalize on it. No competent gun owner would use this mode. | |||
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| Member |
The theory that the AS mode is a product of the Marketing folks looking for a differentiator is a good one. I don't think the trigger getting marketed as some unique AS design was even helpful. It just confused people, especially novice shooters and non-gun people. Treat the gun like a DA/SA and it's predictable and easy for a novice to understand and operate under stress. | |||
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| E tan e epi tas |
AS sillyness aside I really wish the concept of the P99 had grown more legs. I really think it is the perfect mix of tactical striker fired Tupperware with the benefits of a DA/SA system that still has a fantastic trigger and fit human hands. I know that is not what the market wants today and I am not saying "If they update it they will sell a million of them" or anything but it was and is a compelling pistol concept IMO. "Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man." | |||
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| Member |
It's too bad they couldn't keep it in limited production. I realize it's not what most want these days but there is still a hard-core group of people that prefer DA/SA. | |||
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| Finding the sweet spot |
I’m right there with you my friend. I love this pistol and I’m sad to see it go out of production. Sean ------------------------------------------ Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. | |||
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| Member |
I waited to reply again until I actually had a P99 in hand again (got to handle the one at my LGS a couple days later than I planned). I still totally agree with you that the AS mode is stupid (and potentially dangerous) for carry. As you say, it's akin to carrying a 1911 (or other SAO) with the hammer cocked and the safety off. I can also definitely see AS just being a byproduct of (at least Walther's) striker-fired DA/SA. With Walther trying to find a clever way of explaining it and eventually labeling it as a "feature". This is evidenced by the User Manual, which does not make it clear enough as to how exactly it should be used. I've always understood it my way i.e. you get a longer SA pull in every situation (outside of normal firing) where a DA/SA gun ends up in SA (and where your goal may be to eventually put it in DA). As I mentioned in my first post. And the manual seems to imply that. But it's certainly ambiguous enough that it makes me think you have a point. Formerly known as tigerbloodwinning | |||
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Member |
The AS mode only happens after you rack the slide, or "tick" the slide back a bit. When it is in the AS mode you can set the trigger to regular SA by pulling the trigger until you hear a click. If you then let off of the trigger it will remain in SA mode. If you fire from DA the trigger resets to SA. If you let off the trigger it will stay SA. I have to disagree that carrying the P99 in AS mode is as dangerous as carrying a 1911 with the safety disengaged. I think it's more dangerous. The 1911 has a grip safety. I guess that carrying in the AS mode might be safer than carrying a PPQ (or other single action only without a safety) in the normal manner. A couple of side notes: For some reason I don't understand I always pull to the right from the AS mode. I am sad to see the P99 go it is one of my absolute favorites. I also really liked the P99 QA witch was a P99 with a PPS type trigger. _______________________________ Do the interns get Glocks? | |||
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| Member |
I’m glad I started this thread. I hadn’t given this enough thought. I now think Walther is being borderline derelict by naming this system the way they do. I also agree the manual is “soft” on the warnings. I might have carried it that way thinking it was just like carrying a 320. Now enough of you have convinced me how stupid I was thinking. | |||
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| Member |
Of course, all of this isn't to say that the P99 is a bad gun. Just the opposite. I'm actually quite looking forward to owning one again. But it's definitely an "interesting" kind of marketing. You end up with three different theories about the AS mode. The first one is the most prevalent; using the AS mode to have a long (but light) first SA trigger pull when drawing and firing. Although we seem to all agree that you shouldn't carry in AS mode. As a side note, I'd criticize HK's LEM for the same thing, except LEM has an exposed bobbed hammer that you can hold with your thumb while holstering. The P99 does not. The second theory is Para's; that it's a byproduct of Walther's type of striker-fired DA/SA (AS mode only happens because the striker cocks before the trigger shoe moves). Which I find to be more and more likely. The third one is my theory; that Walther wanted the user to have a DA-length SA pull to avoid unintentional discharge (due to poor trigger discipline in a stressful situation) every time a manipulation of the gun results in SA (press check, loading, field stripping). But it seems unlike Walther to include a feature that tries to make up for poor trigger discipline. Nothing is a substitute for proper handling. And then you have the somewhat ambiguous user manual. Which makes Para's theory even more likely. However, I think we can all also agree that it should be used as a regular DA/SA (always decock!). In that sense, my philosophy of use for AS makes it just a bonus. Lechiffre, I still don't think that carrying in AS mode is safer than carrying a PPQ (or PDP). Those guns have a trigger blade, which the P99 does not. Formerly known as tigerbloodwinning | |||
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| E tan e epi tas |
LEM is a whole different weight/travel etc. vs an “AS mode” P99. While LEM isn’t my thing I wouldn’t be worried carrying like I would the Walther in AS mode. LEM is far more akin to those LDA (light double action) pistols that were about in the early 2000s???? Maybe. "Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man." | |||
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