OP states that this is for self-defense, not competition. I am not an ER doc, but I'm willing to bet that amber lamps would not do much good for an assailant who got shot with that kind of a pattern.

I feel like 20 years ago with my 228 and iron sights I could have done better.

I purchased a mount to make a rigid benchrest going off of Beancooker's design to see if the zero can be more accurate.

I will also take the advice of moving in closer and working my way out to further distances as well as using the target linked by 357fuzz and shooting more groups for a larger sample size.


Also want to say thanks for everyones input and that I'm impressed that Fredward had cataract surgery and was able to get on and post same day. I dont remember my eyes adjusting that quick.

A few points here

While definitely not “bad” at 15 yards, I would want it a bit more to point of aim/ impact - the shots of the small dot targets is what I am looking at. Most likely shooter not gun or zero variable though.
A problem might be trying to hold a red dot on a basically red target. Using a contrasting target ( red dot on black target) might tell you more


My suggestion is shoot off bench, and also let another person of known skill shoot it.
I myself ( admitted accuracy junkie) would want to be drilling the target absolutely center

I attended a Larry Vickers class a number of years ago and one thing especially stuck with me-
He stated even the most skilled and experienced operators he worked with the expectation and observation was under true gunfight stress expect your group size to be 2-3x what it is on the practice range-
Those that shoot a fist size group at 7 declare that good enough are kidding themselves. At triple the size on a thin person bladed to you that group is then over half the shots missing entirely
When in a fight you can never have enough accuracy !

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
He stated even the most skilled and experienced operators he worked with the expectation and observation was under true gunfight stress expect your group size to be 2-3x what it is on the practice range-

I won’t argue that it’s very unlikely that anyone would shoot as well under the stress of a life-threatening defensive situation as at the range. I’ve said the same thing myself, and I believe it was Bruce Gray who said something to the effect of, “There’s more to a gunfight than hitting the target.” But where did Vickers get the “2-3x” size information? Was it based on a general assumption of the, “It’s going to be bigger, so I’ll SWAG it,” or did he have valid information from postmortems or autopsies? Did he explain that?

I’m always curious about claims like that of the, “He said it, so it must be true,” sort.

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:

My suggestion is shoot off bench, and also let another person of known skill shoot it.
!

My thoughts will reading all the responses was to have somebody e[se shoot it.

It depends on a lot of factors, ie level of formal training, speed in which those shots were taken, static vs movement, etc. To me the four shots out of the group are more indicative of a trigger control issue than that of the red dot and the group itself tells me that the red dot is just fine. Like many have stated that group is acceptable for a defensive shooting from a holster at relative speed. Would I personally accept it? Yes, because it would tell me that dry fire practice needs to happen 15min a day until I achieved the results I’m striving attain. My goal is a fist sized target from holster at speed, in three shot strings, on a timer. I know my draw speed and split times and set a par for 3 shots under 2 seconds. If I can achieve that goal, my expectation is my group will open up in a real life scenario.

Practice more! Take a ride up to NH to Sig Academy for a class. Your red dot is fine, your shooting is acceptable by many standards, but it seems not up to yours. It doesn’t cost anything to practice dry firing. I think if you learn to run your trigger better you will achieve the results you desire. Your shooting is fine if you stopped where you’re at too.

quote:

Originally posted by dking271:
To me the four shots out of the group ....

Ahem:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
^Those weren't outliers. He was aiming at the red dots individually, then proceeded to target the bullseye separately.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by dking271:
To me the four shots out of the group ....

Ahem:

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
^Those weren't outliers. He was aiming at the red dots individually, then proceeded to target the bullseye separately.

Yep. I think a good portion of the folks reading this thread skipped right over that bit. POA was the four individual red dots for those shots, and IMO there's too many potential factors at play with what is essentially a dot drill to really establish an idea of the mechanical zero from those four rounds.

The only rounds I have any concerns about whatsoever are the four rounds just a bit low left off the bull, but even taking those into account considering the fact that he was shooting freehand at 15 yards, I'd say it's pretty fantastic shooting overall. If he can call his shots and knows what happened with those four, I'd be quite content to put that gun into service with that zero.

For those that think they could do better, I'd be interested to see their 13 round target shot freehand at 15 yards with a service pistol (we're not talking a tricked out bullseye gun here). That requires not only a great degree of precision, but also consistency as well over that many rounds. I doubt I could beat it.

Good shooting, OP!

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
But where did Vickers get the “2-3x” size information? Was it based on a general assumption of the, “It’s going to be bigger, so I’ll SWAG it,” or did he have valid information from postmortems or autopsies? Did he explain that?

I’m always curious about claims like that of the, “He said it, so it must be true,” sort.

I don't know where he got his data from, but it pretty much aligns with mine as a firearms instructor on my last department.

Folk could manage to hit a B-27 on a static line, but the hits easily fell by 50% when you added any stress...shortened times, prior movement, etc.

It is also easy to see when watching newer shooters (not gamers) in Action Pistol competition. They either miss a lot more,...outside the "-1"... when they have to move between positions, or have to really slow down for each shot

For self defense at reasonable ranges, that will get the job done. Of course I would prefer to have one ragged hole, who wouldn't, but with practice, I'm sure you'll get better with it.

Keep shooting!

At 15 yards, that’s actually pretty good shooting. People mount red dots to rifles and pistols and expect it to all of a sudden become a sniper rifle. That’s simply not the case. It may shoot tighter than with irons, but it’s still at the mercy of your abilities.

I’m going to spitball and say that that you’re a right handed shooter. The 4 low left hits would be a classic pre-ignition push for a right handed shooter.

Zeroing is often misunderstood and people can get defensive about how/why you zero it. And that’s ok. 10 yard zero vs 15, 15 vs 25. None of that matters. Pick one you like. Personally, I zero at 10, then I’ll confirm and adjust to 25. That’s just how I do it. The why is more important than the how and often it’s just your skill and desire of how you want to do it. I tell most shooters to not shift shots, shift the core group. Dot brightness does play a factor, so remember that. At 50, I do better with a dot I can barely see as far as shooting a group goes.

Good shooting man.

It doesn't matter what somebody else does with it, it doesn't matter how big a felon's breadbasket is, I agree with kkina, center it up.

I may no longer be able to hit the bullseye every time, but I want my shots to be evenly distributed around the point of aim. With a scope or dot. I like to see an iron sight group form mostly on top of the front sight.

Was at the range today and decided to try this for myself. 15 yards, standing free-hand with a Sig P320 Full-sze wearing a Romeo 1 Pro.

The holes in my target are biased higher, but I felt myself push most of the ones that ended up out of the X-Ring, and I absolutely jerked that one up to the left. I knew it as soon as I sent it that I'd screwed up. 13 rounds gives one plenty of opportunity for that.

In the words of Rooster Cogburn: "I have no doubt that the gun is sound." The weak point is the shooter (ME!).

Again, good shooting, OP!

Do not sight in at close range. The vertical offset between barrel bore and dot is significant at close range. 15 yards is a reasonable distance.

I went shooting for my birthday last week and got to try out the bench rest thing-a-ma-jig (that's what I'm calling it). It's simple, just some 3/4 sanded and some furniture nuts from the bottom so I can use the bolts for adjustments. The Picatinny rail mount isn't used for firing, it's just to mount the gun so I can hold it on the group while I adjust the red dot to line up. The mount is an amazon special so it doesn't lock solid even when tightened down with that little wrench. I also use some small shooting bags to adjust the height of my wrist so I can put the rail or frame of the gun in the milled out grove. It worked well and I don't see a need for improvement.




Turns out the Glock 17 was properly zeroed as best as I can anyway. All the shots from the rest went where the dot was at 15 yards. Any stray shots while shooting were me "pushing" on the trigger or jerking it, as well as a few flinches. I shot 400 9mm and 200 45acp. I was good and tired of all the focus on accuracy. I finished the last 17rd mag shooting the little 4 dots then center bull with the remaining 13 shots at 15 yards not using any rest. I knew as I was shooting that the low left shots were fatigue, I was to the point that my eyes had to be rested and my back was aching. I think I managed slightly better than last time but I knew every shot I missed low left was my fault.

This was the original 2 weeks ago


This was this past weekend.


I also used the benchrest to zero my edc 365xl 507k that I have been carrying for at least 3 years. It was off by a good 1.25 inches. I have a much harder time controlling the recoil on that gun so even being off 1.25 I couldn't tell. The benchrest brought that reality out. It is now zeroed properly but the groups need a lot of work. I'm thinking about getting a metal frame for it to absorb some of that felt recoil. I need a lot more practice with it compared to the 17 or even the hk 45 which was the heavier gun and by far the easiest to shoot.

Anyway, thanks for the comments, help and guidance.

Nice! Thank you for the update. I had a feeling you were doing just fine.

Nice. Good job.

I am far from an expert or or marksman, just another old curmudgeon with bad eyes. It appears to me that the person or creature you were shooting at would not be feeling very well at all! Certainly suitable shooting for me!

Nice work, I'd be happy with that! I like your homemade bench rest, too.

As Grampa would say, "Atsa more better"