Just for clarity, I'm closing in on 51 and have had a vitrectomy for diabetic retinopathy on both eyes. Also, I'm not the best shooter I've met.

I just milled a glock 17 and mounted a 507c on it. After cataract surgery iron sites are a hinderance so I'm putting dots on everything it seems. I took it out the range yesterday and spent time zeroing the dot. I eventually settled on the zero not feeling confident that it was perfect but I got tired of messing with it.

This target was the first I shot with it after that. I shot at the 4 red dots clockwise then put the remaining 13 at the bullseye at 15 yards slow fire free hand.

So I am curious. Would this be acceptable to you? Would you say that with a correct zero you would hit all the red dots? Are the missed shots not acceptable?

I know that skill and experience has a lot to play into it, I'm not a competitor, its not a race gun, and I really only intend it to be a self-defense handgun.

For you personally, would this be good enough or does it need work?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Nickelsig229,

I would not accept that. If it were me, I would bench rest it and shoot a 5 round group at 5 yards. If group is centered, tight and within an inch of centered vertically, I would then push it out to 15 and repeat.
Tweak as needed to get the group you are looking for.
Last, I would push it out 20 25 and verify windage. If a slight tweak is needed left or right, this would be my last step. If ok, I would call it a day.

I wouldn't be happy with that with irons at that distance. But then again, I don't shoot glocks and have no idea what they're capable of.

Free hand, at 15 yards? Yeah, probably. You're the shooter, so only you can know for sure. If you can call your shots and know which ones were clean and which were off and why, I'd feel pretty good about it. I'd probably still want to do what Pete K suggests, though, and shoot it off a bench just to be sure.

At 15 yards….offhand, I’ll be the guy who admits he sucks and I’d be totally fine with that. Much past 12-15 yards my “kung fu” is not strong.

Keep in mind the dot is not some sci fi auto aiming device YOU the shooter still need to have the skills. Yank left on your trigger pull and dot or not you are shanking a shot.

So personally, I don’t think that’s half bad. It wouldn’t hurt to tweak your zero as suggested but you are well within MOA(minute of asshole).

Red dots are not magic; they don’t ensure that someone will automatically shoot the center out of the bull. I remember something similar the first time I fired a G19 with the OLDE trigger guard mounted BA-2 laser. My first group with the thing was worse than with open sights.

If that target was an example of the mechanical accuracy of that combo, then no...that's not acceptable.

However, if that's where you're at with your shooting at that age and with that vision (I'm in the +50 club too) then I'll say not too shabby.

We don't need to worry about accuracy here (which frankly looks just fine). The objective is to adjust zero.

Here's what I see:

Looking at the red dots, we have 1 right, 1 left, and 2 low.
Looking at the bullseye target, I see a slight low bias, but the group is pretty close to windage-centered, maybe a tiny amount left.

So there is some offset low, and windage is slightly left. I would try bringing your RDS up a smidge and a tiny bit right, but you're already pretty close.

(If it were me I would also shoot a few more targets before making any changes just to be sure.)

I can't tell if you are asking about your red dot zeroing or your actual shooting results at 15y?
If that were me on the first question I'd raise the POI, I like to see somewhat symmetrical groups around the aim point for zeroing. For the second question that's really all about your skills and goals. There is nothing wrong with that group size out of a defensive handgun at 15y given the circumstances you describe. IMO.

quote:

Would this be acceptable to you? Would you say that with a correct zero you would hit all the red dots? Are the missed shots not acceptable?

No, with a correct zero your shots would show no bias in any one direction, regardless if you actually hit the dot. In other words, your shots would pattern evenly all around the bullseye, e.g. a couple left, a couple right, a couple high, and a couple low. You're pretty close to that already.

You can't forget about ammo type/brand,especially with offhand shooting. How did the gun perform with the ammo prior? Is it fmj or jhp or a combo of? Like others have said your vision and getting used to the dot will also change things up. I think it is decent shooting for the time you have had with it and your changes in vision.

I am unsure why ammo has any meaningful part of this discussion? at this range. The difference between normal and hot loads and different bullet weights is very small with a 15y zero. like a couple of tenths of inch well below the size of the dot itself.

I wouldn't change anything. I know there have been exceptions, but your threat level is rarely going to exceed 15 yards, and it me be hard to justify a shooting at a further distance. From where I stand, that's pretty fair accuracy, but I'm an old fart with poor vision as well. Matter of fact, I had cataracts removed today and drains installed for glaucoma.

Find this target on the internet. It is free all over the net. Print out bunch. Make it easy on yourself start at 5 yards. Get the shots dialed in. Then go to 10 yards. Should be a few little adjustments if any. Boom you’re done. It is real nice target to use. [IMG:left] [/IMG]

Minute of Plate.
For a self defense gun, your results are more than sufficient. There are so many variables with handguns - starting with your finger tip - that affect accuracy.
If you can hit a 12” plate consistently under pressure, I say you’re doing fine and your gun is doing fine.

NickleSIG, you saw the benchrest I built (other thread searching for it) and while it was perfectly sighted in on the benchrest, as soon as it came off and I was holding the gun, I was up and right two inches both directions. I shot probably 100 rounds and all my groups were tight, but up and right two inches. I ended up readjusting the optic so my shots were dead nuts.
Put it back on the benchrest and my shots were down and left two inches.
I need to get a buddy out videotaping (odd that I still use that word as we haven’t had tape in a decade) me so I can see what I’m doing wrong.
I also need to add some snap caps to my loading of three mags in random order, then mix up the mags so I don’t know when I will get the snap cap. If I’m anticipating recoil, I’ll know as soon as I fire the snap cap.

I think your group looks pretty good. If you know why your four outliers are way out, I would call it great.

^Those weren't outliers. He was aiming at the red dots individually, then proceeded to target the bullseye separately.

I even read the whole post before I replied…

Being that you were aiming at the four red dots before the bullseye, I would call that very acceptable for a defense weapon.

15 yards, free hand, defensive handgun, hell yes. Looks fine to me. Clearly the bullets are going pretty much where you aim them.

quote:

Originally posted by kkina:
^Those weren't outliers. He was aiming at the red dots individually, then proceeded to target the bullseye separately.

Thanks for pointing that out.
Reading is fundamental.

For defensive purposes, I believe that’s far more than “good enough.”

When I attended an NRA law enforcement handgun instructor development course 20+ years ago the one prerequisite was to be able to achieve 6 inch groups at 15 yards. That was of course with iron sights and I can regularly do twice as good myself, but for anyone who realizes that the central group shown above was what counts, why isn’t it adequate? Just what do you have in mind for a non-LEO self-defense situation that someone like that is going to find himself in?

A non-LEO defensive engagement at 15 yards isn’t impossible, but extremely unlikely, and in such an extremely unlikely event the OP’s accuracy would be better than the vast majority of shooters’. Far more than one’s level of absolute accuracy at the range and using a static target, what almost certainly would be more important would be one’s ability to quickly engage a probably moving target while moving oneself, with no advance warning while dealing with adrenaline overload, tunnel vision, and “Where’s the dam’ switch on the light I was told I need on this thing?”

As for the “Is it sighted in well enough?” yes, I believe so, especially if you were having trouble getting the point of impact adjusted. If you believe you might find yourself on a CAG team busting into a hallway to deliver a hostage rescue shot at 50 meters, then it should possibly be adjusted some, but even then what’s important is to know the POI at different distances. Just fire groups at varying ranges and see where they cluster.

When I discuss night vision sights with students I point out that the difference between using the top of the front sight or the glowing lamp for our sight picture, the difference is about 2 inches at 25 yards. I then ask if it makes a difference whether we hit the BG in the second or third button on his shirt.