quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Every time I see one of these Sig rail wear threads I seriously wonder why no one ever worries about rail wear on aluminum Berettas, Smiths, CZ's, etc. Never. Never read a thread about is this OK? on a Beretta. Ever.

Is the nature of aluminum different in Germany? lol

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Every time I see one of these Sig rail wear threads I seriously wonder why no one ever worries about rail wear on aluminum Berettas, Smiths, CZ's, etc. Never. Never read a thread about is this OK? on a Beretta. Ever.

Is the nature of aluminum different in Germany? lol

quote:

Originally posted by SIGWolf:
This from Gray Guns web site.

"The first thing to look at is the frame rails. The rails will tell you everything that you need to know about how well the gun has been taken care of. The following is how the colors of the under side of the frame rails will change as your gun wears.

Dull Black – No wear, perfect finish.

Shiny Black – Slight wearing in of the pigment in the anodizing, this is normal after around 200 rounds.

Dark Gold/Orange – The pigment in the anodizing is starting to wear, this is perfectly normal and not a problem, the metal is still protected and your frame is still perfectly viable. Most guns reach this phase between 2,000 and 4,000 rounds.

Bright Gold – The pigment in the anodizing is wearing in. Your frame is still protected and your gun is still perfectly viable. Most guns reach this phase and remain static from here on out as long as proper lubrication is used.

Light Gold – The pigment in your anodizing is wearing through, your frame is still protected, but you should keep an eye on it.

Shiny Silver – This is where you need to start to worry. The pigment in the anodizing is worn through, your frame is still protected, but you need to monitor your frame rails very closely and make sure they remain greased thoroughly for the rest of your gun’s life.

Dull Silver – You’re screwed. Your anodizing has worn completely through in the areas you see dull anodizing. From here on your frame is unprotected and it’s time to buy a new gun. It may still shoot and function perfectly, but your frame rails will continue to wear at a much accelerated rate."

https://grayguns.com/guide-to-...r-pistol-inspection/

In my limited esperience, Different SIG models and calibers wear a little differently and different guns may wear in slight different places depending on caliber and slide to frame fit. Sort of an individual pattern within a family resemblence.

Many people don't lube their guns and I'm a proponent of grease on SIGs taking the advice of Gray Guns to protect the life of the gun. One of the first things I look at with a SIG is rail wear as many used guns are just not lubbed. Without lube, or much lube, I think the wear described here can occur more quickly.

I think it was also the case the some of the red box SIGs were refinished hidding the rail wear. The refinish may have prolonged the life a bit, but when the finish wore, then the original wear underneath then became apparent and made it appear the wear had significantly escalated in a short time.

quote:

Originally posted by tundrav84wd:

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Every time I see one of these Sig rail wear threads I seriously wonder why no one ever worries about rail wear on aluminum Berettas, Smiths, CZ's, etc. Never. Never read a thread about is this OK? on a Beretta. Ever.

Is the nature of aluminum different in Germany? lol

If you've been around the brand long enough, like myself for example, since 1978, you see things. What's considered "normal" now, would not have been years ago. Does it matter to the average owner and the ability of the gun to function for the amount of use most guns will receive in their lives? Probably not.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
I laugh at these threads. If Matrix were here, he'd laugh too.

Anytime quality is brought up with SIG, people bemoan returning to the good old days. Back to the days when SIGs were made from pixie dust, and assembled by real live Unicorns. (Ignoring the fact that parts broke back then too).

A dude from a federal agency sent me some videos here a while back of a current production P229 that their staff ran 8,000 rounds through in about 3 hours. 8,000 rounds. The barrel didn't start exhibiting "smilies" until about 6,500 rounds. They'd shoot the crap out of it, douse it with lube, and shoot the crap out of it some more. One of the videos showed smoke rolling off of the barrel when the lube was applied.

But, that can't be. The gun should have fell into a pile of dust with that kind of abuse according to those who think quality has fell off.

I get it. SIG isn't perfect. They put out some guns, most notably the recent case of the NJSP, that don't run. That is unacceptable. However, they are putting out guns right now that are as good as the guns I started my SIG journey with. We pick nits over finish problems. The inconsistency of the DA pull gun to gun. But, I can tell you across a wide swath of guns, they are putting out P-Series pistols that are as good, if not better than, some of the old guns they put out.

No doubt, SIG has screwed the pooch with quality in the past. Like the BRILLIANT idea to MIM trigger bars. But, I'll take a current production Legion right now over any West German gun out there for my needs.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Fair questions-

Let me point out a couple of things. The frame rail wear is not all that bad. That is not the worst level of frame rail wear that is seen. Frame rail wear is generally on the underside of the rails, with the worst offender spots being just aft of the take down lever left and right. The worst offenders generally exhibit one of two things. First, the dull gray/silver spots are noticeable, and have a noticeable texture when you run a thumbnail across it. Two, they have a dull gold/tan halo from where it ate through the treatment. That frame wear is overtly noticeable. I just don't see that from these pictures, perhaps in person there's something I am not seeing, but in the pictures, the gun has another $15,000 in ammo life left in it.

Frame rail wear isn't exactly stage 4 cancer. It is probably closer to diabetes. It may get you one day, but you can slow the effects. Frame to slide fit only accounts for about 30 percent as it comes to overall accuracy of a pistol. So, that tells us that the gun can be pretty sloppy when it comes to the fit. Then there is the fear that the wear will lead to a crack, and the crack will cause the front of the gun to fall off. Truth is, most of the cracks will eventually stop drill themselves on the take down levers. If you put enough lube on the gun, you could probably put another 10-20k through the gun before you'd really need to retire it. And look at that math. Another $2k-4K worth of ammo before you retire a $800 pistol.

The problem with frame wear and the voodoo surrounding it is that SIG is their own worst enemy. They recommend way too little lube in the care of their pistols. Hang with me for a minute on this. We live in a world that posts signs to remind people that they need to wash their hands prior to returning to work. You know, the thing that takes like 30 seconds after you use the bathroom that everyone should know that they should do? The lube schedule is underwhelming because it is simple, and comparable to the plastic guns schedules. If SIG put out what needs to happen, it would be a turn off to the markets they are trying to cater to.
Now, stack on top of that cops. That minimum lube standard? Yeah, they'll screw that up. My duty guns get disassembled, wiped down, relubed and reassembled every other week or so if I don't shoot them. I know a ton of guys that you are lucky if you can get them to reload their magazines with ammo, let alone clean and properly lube. Most have this idea that lube is somehow the enemy. They saw something on youtube, or heard somebody in a gun store say that if you put too much lube on a gun, that it will collect baked bean sized crude and your gun will not function. So, they apply lube with a Q tip with such care like they are handling nuclear waste. Lube the frickin gun. Grease it if you're going to shoot it a lot.

Finally, SIG did put out some guns going on 8-10 years ago that had burrs on the frame rails that led to accelerated frame wear. This was a FUBAR on SIG's part, and it was guns that never should have left the factory. I felt a couple that had only a few hundred rounds through them that the wear was almost noticeable under the fingernails. They have put out bad guns. This was in the same period that the geniuses decided to try to MIM trigger bars. Their quality control has gone back up. Do they still screw things up? Yeah. But, in the grand scheme it is few and far between. I also have to admit, a lot of the complaints I see here I can't believe that people are complaining about it. Particularly in the finish department. To each their own I suppose.

I hope this helps, and thanks for the questions.

quote:

Originally posted by tundrav84wd:
I appreciate you taking the time to give a thoughtful answer, but my question remains unanswered.

Specifically, the anodizing being compromised....in the critical area of the rails. Before, it's not good. Now?

I know in this gun shown, the anodizing is compromised. At some point, looking at the reference material, and experience, something apparently changed and we now don't seem so concerned with it. It's just hard to wrap my head around this, especially having been heavily involved with the brand since 1978.

To clarify, I realize there is plenty of life in the gun left. May never be an issue.

Assuming the reference material now doesn't apply, what is the new standards and exactly when do we need to worry? Just looking for clarification of old vs new criteria.

quote:

Originally posted by toto:
We know that some Sig's have gone trough 100K rounds without problems, one exemplar of a special forces unit was estimated 1 million rounds before the slide craked and the frame rails too, it was a folded slide P226 9mm with more than 20 years of service. The last oprator shot 250'00 rounds through this gun before the cracks occure.
I've nerver heard a problem here in Switzerland with rail wear.
The big problem was that the dual rollpins must be changed at 5000 rounds, after those 5000 rounds the rollpins will break one day or another. When bocken, the breachblock will move slightly and put stress on the frame rails. At the end the rails will crack.
A simple check is to try to move the breachblock in the slide with 2 fingers. if you have some movement, one or both rollpins are cracked.