I haven’t seen much, if any discussion of this question in recent times, but long ago when LEOs were usually armed with revolvers some agencies issued 357 Magnum ammunition for duty but used 38 Special ammunition, commonly wimpy target loads, for training and qualifications. As more attention started being paid to the quality and relevance of training, there was a move toward using magnum loads for everything. The result was a drastic drop in qual scores. The lesson of that experience was that training using more powerful loads with their greater muzzle blast and recoil should have been the norm, not the rare exception.

There is not as much difference among the various loads for the big four defensive autoloading handgun cartridges (9mm, 357 SIG, 40 S&W, 45 ACP) as there is between full house 357 Magnum and powder puff 38 Special target loads, but they are nevertheless not all the same. That is most true of 9mm Luger. My defensive load of choice for 9mm is the Speer 124 grain +P Gold Dot, but I commonly practice with standard pressure Blazer 115 grain FMJ. The “power factor” and kinetic energy of the Gold Dot from a P229 are ~150 and 400 foot-pounds; of the Blazer they are ~133 and 340 ft-lb.

But I don’t normally rely on a gun chambered for 9mm as a self-defense weapon. My handgun cartridge of choice is the Speer 125 grain 357 SIG Gold Dot load. Its PF and KE from a P229 are about 165 and 484 ft-lb. One thing about the 357 SIG cartridge is that most FMJ training type loads are similar in power to the defensive stuff, but because of its cost and somewhat scarcity I don’t practice with the round very much. What I do is shoot a fair amount of 40 S&W ammunition, and most of those loads produce at least as much recoil as 357, and some produce more. My arthritis is getting to the point that the Blazer aluminum 165 grain 40 load hurts my wrist to shoot from a P320. In actual performance tests I shoot 357 ammunition at least as well as the 40 training stuff I use. On the other hand, 9mm is more comfortable to shoot, I’m a little faster with it (but not much), and it’s obviously less expensive.

So, after all that preamble, I’m curious what other shooters who rely on handguns for serious purposes think about the issue of the power of self-defense versus training ammunition, and specifically what they do about it.

(The answers below refer to your dedicated training and practice, not to blowing off a few rounds now and then for other purposes.)
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Question:
Thinking about the past 12 months, how often did you train/practice with ammunition that was substantially as powerful as what you carry or otherwise rely on for defensive purposes?
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Choices:
I don’t worry about it, so almost never (0-10%).
Sometimes (11-20%)
Frequently (21-45%)
About half the time (46-55%)
More often than not (56-80%)
Usually (81-90%)
Almost always (91-100%)

 

For myself, when we qualify, we shoot a (handgun) course of 100 rounds. Our duty pistols were Glock 17s. For the majority of the course we shoot our duty ammo, 124gr Critical Defense JHP. That gets us to 85 rounds, and we finish off with 115gr FMJ. Our duty ammo is replaced after quals.

For Patrol rifle and shotgun, we qualify with what we shoot.

That's how it was up to my retirement in December. When I shoot on the range now, I almost always shoot target ammo, but finish off with a mag or cylinder of the real stuff at the end.

Sigfreund - Great Thread and I am interested to see the poll results and comments. For me I fall into the "Almost Always" when I have a new pistol that I want to insure full functionality before knowing that it can become my CCP or one of my home defense weapons BUT once I get through those first 200-300 rounds I honestly fall into the "sometimes" category. This usually occurs when I am rotating out my carry ammo where I have replacement self defense ammo in hand and I will empty the mags and partial boxes of that same ammo for that specific pistol before reloading with the fresh ammo. Other than that I usually shoot my reloaded ammo.....

Gonna watch, read, and learn from this thread...Mark

Before this goes too far, I want to stress that the question refers to ammunition for handguns that are relied on to a significant degree for self-defense.

That does not mean, however, that I'm not interested in comments about how you practice with defensive rifles or shotguns, but please don't include that in your poll response. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Before this goes too far, I want to stress that the question refers to ammunition for handguns that are relied on to a significant degree for self-defense. Thanks.

Then my answer stands. Now I pay for my own, I shoot mostly target ammo after I've ensured it functions correctly with the SD load I intend to carry.

I took the easy way when I picked my new carry load. I picked Speer Gold Dot G2 9MM 147gr as the carry load and the 147 Lawman TMJ as the practice load. They have similar firing characteristics. I still shoot some of the G2s from time to time, but not every session. I have been unable to detect any negative impact from shooting the TMJs.

As to the importance, They seemed to make a big deal about it after Newhall on the LE side. on the Army side the practice ammo and the carry ammo was one and the same, we'll see that happens with the new 9mm rounds, I haven't been in an M17 equipped unit yet.

I personally believe it depends on the caliber,loading and shooter. I've noticed a big difference between .38 SPC target loads and 125 gr Remington .357 magnums in my 686. I've noticed it less between .38 spc and .38 spc +P in the same weight class. I did notice a difference between .38 SPC 130 grn and 158 grain .38 SPC in my S&W 340.

I don't mean to complicate this, but (as more than one ex has told me) I'm complicated. If you've got enough guns and ammo, sometimes "reduced recoil" practice just means switching to a 9mm. S&B's 124 grain ball (definitely my preferred practice ammo) is rated at 1150-1200 fps, so I'm pretty sure I'm shooting "full power" loads. OTOH, there's a noticeable difference between shooting 9mm and 357SIG (Speer, which isn't really a reduced load) or 45 ACP (again, S&B, rated at 230 grains/850+ fps). Technically I'm not shooting reduced loads but I guess there are times when I step down what I shoot a bit.

Boy, the conditions on your expected answers and the choices left me in a bit of a quandary. It was either "I don't worry about it" or "Sometimes," but neither is quite right.

I probably run most of the full power loads I do through an SD pistol when I first acquire it, to find out what works with the gun and what does not. Then, once all the loads in a carry magazine have been chambered twice from unloading to load practice rounds, then reloading: I shoot them. I do this because of the possibility of set-back, to ensure the pistol still likes them, and to keep somewhat familiar with what to expect when I light them off.

So really, "none of the above," but probably somewhere around maybe ±10% of the time, for the reasons stated.

I checked 'almost always' as if you ever -need- it, it is best that your muscle/nerve memory remembers what is going to happen. I make specific ammo to replicate SD ammo so I can afford to do this.
To remind myself that things can go sideways, I will load some mags with a mix of practice and SD, helps keeps you focused. And has been mentioned, I end a session with a mag or 2 of SD power loads so my memory is of that rather than a reduced recoil.

Every once in a while, I will load a batch of JHP to match my business ammo.
Sometimes I will buy a box of econoball. It doesn't have the velocity but the cheap powder gives it as much flash and bang.

I voted "Sometimes" as it doesn't seem to make much difference in recoil with my semi auto calibers, in fact, I shoot the hollowpoint more accurately than the range ammo, and don't notice any difference in splits.

I do frequently practice with .38 spc. or light .44 mag loads in my revolvers, but I always end with a cylinder or two of the real thing, as felt recoil in those calibers is significantly different than in my semi autos. In addition, I buy range ammo with "real" fps designations, rather than practicing with minimum power factor stuff like guys load up for IDPA, etc, so I am almost never shooting real creampuff loads.

There is a HUGE difference in how shooting a revolver with .357 magnum or plain jane .38 specials feel. On your normal auto loading pistol calibers, I feel almost no discernable difference between regular fmj range ammo and a good JHP in recoil.....a little bit, but not worth mentioning except in maybe a pocket .380.

I have 2 preferred carry pistols, a Gen 4 G23 and a Gen 4 G19, both modified with night sights and Guardian trigger systems.
G23 range practice at ranges from 3 to 25 yards,
165 gr. solids and 180 gr solids. Carry is either 180 gr solids or 165 gr Federal, Winchester, or similar JHP. I try to shoot
about 50 rounds each practice session of each at about 3 week intervals.
The G19 uses NATO 124 gr. 9mm solids, WWB; WWB 115 JHP plus Fiocchi 147 Gr JHP in about equal proportions, with the JHP rounds being preferred carry ammunition. Practice sessions are also about 3 weeks apart.
Bedside either a 9mm P226 or a P220 .45 with good quality hollow points. One of these guns go on the range practice sessions with whichever Glock is taken.
Blackhorse4

Full power plinking and practice ammo for me anytime I shoot.

Oh shit, I agree with jimmy. I don’t notice much difference between the two loads in my compact autos. I used to carry a USPc 40 and we always qualified with duty ammo. Never noticed much difference.

So once I run enough through a particular gun to ensure it works, there is no point spending a bunch of $$$ extra practicing with the good stuff.

I suspect the only ones who do this regularly are rich or their agency supplies it.

I carry 124gr. HSTs and practice with 124gr American Eagle. The ballistics are the same, if you can believe the box,

quote:

Practicing with full-power ammo—how important is it?

Insiginficant, because aiming and pulling the trigger is done when the system is in an idel mode.

I voted "sometimes".
Mostly range ammo, although we do shoot carry loads periodically.

Good point about .357 Full House vs. .38 Special.
BIG difference in recoil.

With my 9mm's not so much difference between range ammo and carry ammo in regards to recoil, IME.

Never shot anyone, but I have shot high recoiling rifles at big game.
It's true, you never feel the recoil when your mind is in that ramped up state.
I expect FOR ME, that it would be the same if I had to shoot a human.

I didn't vote because I think it is dependent upon what your goal is. Or rather, what your style is.

I first started pondering this very question with the introduction of the Glock 44, the .22 caliber Glock 19. Everything is exactly the same. Except the gun does not move when it is recoiling. It is basically dry firing with a little noise. I truly believe that dry fire makes you better. So, the questions I started trying to answer is if I shoot lower powered ammunition, am I truly making gains. I think the answer is yes if you concern yourself with the process of what you are doing, and not the end results. With the caveat in pistol shooting is if I focus on the process of allowing the gun to go bang, no matter how fast or slow, the results will take care of themselves.

So, my answer to your question is that I do not believe it to matter. If you are process oriented, the experience of doing the task is the important part. As to my own personal percentage? Most of the ammo that I shoot are similar enough to our duty load that there isn't a great amount of distance between shooting nothing but duty ammo, and never shooting duty ammo. If I practice with match ammo, I still strive to prep-reset-prep before the sights are back on the target, or before the sights are on the next target if I'm running a transition.

I generally shoot the same, if only to easily reduce one variable within my control.

For instance, for the many years I carried a 1911 my carry load was GoldDot JHPs and my range load was the Speer Lawman FMJs in the same grain. Some manufacturer, same number of grains, same same etc.

But I don't think about it much beyond that.