quote:

Originally posted by Jester814:

quote:

A safety can be disengaged in less than a second

And failing or forgetting to disengage your safety can last the rest of your lifetime.

I stopped owning pistols with manual safeties after going through a police academy course in 2003 where we had a 2 second drill from 3m to fire 3 shots. I pulled out my gun and pulled the trigger and NOTHING happened. Took me until the buzzer rang to realize that I needed to flick off my safety and I fired all three shots after the timer.

It only takes dry fire drills to instinctively drop the safety during the draw. I've only had my m18 since October and don't remember dropping the safety when doing live fire drills or putting it back on before returning to the holster. No instructor has questioned my safety or made a single comment on it as I've never forgot to drop the safety in a drill.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
Doesn’t really matter what you use, you need to be fluent in the manual of arms, as well as its idiosyncrasies or risks.

I do believe many striker fired guns come with an added layer of training/risk associated with them for the gain of a more predictable faster trigger.

So you will carry DA/SA (like I prefer) aha problem solved…….well not if you don’t decock when you should or decock in a safe location should the mechanics fail.

So I will carry a 1911 or other gun with a safety….problem solved…..until the safety isn’t used or is used improperly etc.

So I will carry a club until you drop the club on your foot.


The point I am making is barring a truly dangerous design or defect All weapons are dangerous. That’s kind of the point. Know your chosen gear, know it’s manual of arms, know it’s inherent risks, know your training obligations to the platform and …….. pays your monies and takes your chances. Know learn what works for YOU.

Best thing we can all do is ALWAYS reiterate the rules of gun safety to ourself EVERY TIME we handle firearms and preach said rules to the masses. Complacency breeds holes.

Well said, I don't understand all the attacks on people that want to use what they want to use. As my instructor stated to my class: Learn your weapon well and practice under conditions that may make you mess up so it never happens when it matters. Dry fire, draw and practice.

^^^ It's been kind of a running debate for some time. The invention and adoption of a safety device implies that the same or similar guns without the safety device are somehow "unsafe" - whether that's true or not or only relatively true at best. People are used to debating over which operating system they use (even though it seems to boil down to preference, really), and in the course of that "I prefer" becomes "yours sucks in some way because yours doesn't have one".

My own preference for a manual safety on striker-fired pistols boils down to how I reacted once to something going bump in the night. (No, there were no negligent discharges.) If I'm not quite awake I want to be forced to make one more deliberate decision before firing a shot. That doesn't mean that anyone else needs it, even under the same circumstances. It just means (to me) that it's nice to have the option.

Having said that, once I have a safety on the pistol I use it just to make sure I get in the habit of engaging and disengaging it. That's no different to me than rewiring my head to always use a decocker on a P22X.

These types of threads will rage on for years and years. Thats ok.

There is 2 camps, from what I have seen, that like to bicker back and forth on this issue.

1)Soldiers/former soldiers, are usually OK owning a self defense pistol with a safety. They were TRAINED on a 1911, Beretta M9, or Sig P320 that have safeties, and based on their training and opinions, they are OK with buying a self defense pistol with a safety.

2) Cops/former cops, trained in the "Glock" style pistol (no manual safety). They are TRAINED on a pistol that lacks a safety. Based on their training, world view, and opinions, they feel that safeties are failure points. They know that a holstered pistol never fires, and they likely have never had an accidental discharge. They have seen folks forget to turn their safety off at the gun range, which takes seconds for the person to realize, and then fix, their pistol, and then discharge a round. They have watched real video evidence of people forgetting to turn their safety off, and getting killed in the process (like Active Self Protection Youtube channel, thousands of videos to watch). When micro seconds count, do you really want to fiddle with a safety?

Im in the second camp (can you tell?)

I think safeties are failure points. Can that failure point be trained out? Maybe. Maybe not. We have seen trained skilled operators forget their safety on a safe, pistol range. What about in real life, when they have microseconds to respond? Forgetting to turn a safety off... will get you killt in the streets.

I want simplicity. I want to remove a firearm from a holster, press it towards the target, press the trigger, it goes bang. Simple.

I own quite a few guns and you can bet good money, that my self defense pistols, lack a manual safety. I wont carry or even own a self defense pistol that has a manual safety. Just leaving the safety in the "off" position is not an option. And yes, the Ruger LCP, Glock 42 and similar style guns are perfectly safe in a pocket, even though they lack a manual safety. Contrary to the opinion of some folks.

There was question earlier about how often do you check safeties on your carry gun if so equipped. My answer is everytime I grab the weapon I check the safety before I put on the holster. So far my P365’s safety has never been inadvertently flipped off safe.

+

quote:

I think safeties are failure points.

Can that failure point be trained out?

If a safety is a failure point then what is your finger?
If you can consciously keep your finger off a trigger that is ready-to-fire SA then why can't you consciously flip the safety down as you draw?

I agree if you are open-carrying day-in and day-out especially as a LE then maybe no safety would help those but for someone who carries everyday and causally aka meaning carrying everywhere IWB, in a variety of places then > maybe, just maybe a manual safety is beneficial.

It doesn't matter how many microseconds it takes to drop your safety as long as the gun shoots when you want it to.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
I agree if you are open-carrying day-in and day-out especially as a LE then maybe no safety would help those but for someone who carries everyday and causally aka meaning carrying everywhere IWB, in a variety of places then > maybe, just maybe a manual safety is beneficial.

See, thats your personal opinion. Based on your training level, and experience level. My training and experience tells me... that I absolutely positively DO NOT want a carry gun with a safety. See, I know for a fact that holstered firearms do not self destruct. They don't just fire all willy nilly. They are safe, in a holster. A person can carry for a lifetime with a fully loaded Glock. I assure, its safe. If you know what you are doing.

I was a cop, originally carrying an agency DA revolver, then the P226. I was never issued, nor have I owned a Glock. I carried S&W Shields without safety levers in retirement, always concerned that a windbreaker drawstring, thumb snap or other foreign object could discharge these pistols within the trigger guard. My current IWB P365s have manual safeties. A holster is not a safety device. My training has taught me that.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:

See, that's your personal opinion. Based on your training level, and experience level. My training and experience tells me... that I absolutely positively DO NOT want a carry gun with a safety. See, I know for a fact that holstered firearms do not self destruct. They don't just fire all willy nilly. They are safe, in a holster. A person can carry for a lifetime with a fully loaded Glock. I assure, its safe. If you know what you are doing.

You have no right to assume anything about my training or experience.

Whether I or anybody else prefer a safety in situations is not your business either.

Single actions like 1911 or Browning HP yes. Striker fired or decocker like sig p series nope.

I abhor the safety on my 365xl the sales guy grabbed one out of the back and like an idiot I didn’t physically inspect it while running NICS and made it home and noticed and went back and they were like hey sorry man you left the store with it. I know I can convert it but I’m not keen to do that to a carry gun. So it’s a permanent range toy unless I take a bath on it and trade it.

Why not just push the safety up (off) and go about your business? It is a very positive retention not likely to be accidently switched on. I don't understand the reluctance to changing the frame even if it's a carry gun. This series Sig was specifically designed for user modularity. Switching frames and other components isn't going to be detrimental to the functionality or reliability of the gun. Plus the frames, both OEM or WC are in the $65 range, and there is a market for frames with the safety cut out where you could recoup a good portion of this expense.

Why would you consider striker guns differently from SA hammer guns? Both have short, light trigger pulls. A safety on a fully cocked striker gun (of which there are now a lot), makes a lot of sense.

quote:

Originally posted by ElToro:
Single actions like 1911 or Browning HP yes. Striker fired or decocker like sig p series nope.

I abhor the safety on my 365xl the sales guy grabbed one out of the back and like an idiot I didn’t physically inspect it while running NICS and made it home and noticed and went back and they were like hey sorry man you left the store with it. I know I can convert it but I’m not keen to do that to a carry gun. So it’s a permanent range toy unless I take a bath on it and trade it.

^^^What he said.

quote:

Originally posted by NavyGuy:
Why not just push the safety up (off) and go about your business? It is a very positive retention not likely to be accidently switched on. I don't understand the reluctance to changing the frame even if it's a carry gun. This series Sig was specifically designed for user modularity. Switching frames and other components isn't going to be detrimental to the functionality or reliability of the gun. Plus the frames, both OEM or WC are in the $65 range, and there is a market for frames with the safety cut out where you could recoup a good portion of this expense.

On a P365 pushing the safety lever up engages the safety
Just FYI

quote:

Originally posted by Vette02:

On a P365 pushing the safety lever up engages the safety
Just FYI

Of course it does.

I am still mystified that you could buy a gun with a manual safety and you hate manual safeties. That is comic gold. You make it funnier by proclaiming you “won’t convert it on a carry gun”. What the fuck are you talking about? Converting? It was built to either have a safety, add a safety, or remove a safety. They are the exact same fcu if you remove the 3 parts that comprise the safety. You haven’t converted anything. You removed a part that was designed to be removed. Or added.

Quit whining and remove it. It’s not brain surgery.

The thing about turning the safety off and ignoring it ala Beretta 92/HK USP/etc. etc. is that it doesn’t absolve you from training with the safety. They can turn on or off on their own so to speak. (Bumps, falls, etc. I don’t me magically or due to inferior mechanics). So if you have a gun with a safety you should still train with it even if you ultimately don’t use it.

I prefer DA/SA without a safety but I’m not “monogamous” so to speak. .

I do also feel a pre cocked striker is not all that different than a cocked and unlocked 1911 etc. short trigger travel, fairly light pull.

Again this isn’t me saying you are a fool for carrying X, Y or Z just pointing out what I said before. Know your platform, know how it works and train and use equipment(properly designed holsters, trigger guard holsters etc. to mitigate its risks.

The key take away, especially for any new gun owner reading this is that there are lots of different operating systems for firearms and they all come with inherent risks. Part of owning one for self defense comes down to knowing yourself. Mentally I PERSONALLY prefer a longer heavier first shot as at O’Dark thirty with my butt puckered up I want a little extra pull weight just in case in the heat of the moment I might not follow trigger discipline to the letter. NOTE - ALWAYS FOLLOW TRIGGER DISCIPLINE . I just understand I am human and an idjit so I build in a little extra stupid factor for me. . Also there is something wholly un natural for me holstering a gun without riding a hammer in. Totally mental as you could give me a Glock NY trigger and I would still try to “ride the hammer home”.

Side note. I don’t know how you AIWB guys do it without a manual safety or DA/Hammer. Again you be you but I’ve talked to Big Jim and the Twins and frankly they were not happy at the mere suggestion of it and I like those guys and don’t want them to pack their bags and roll away.

Really anxious to pick up an XMACRO model. I own and daily carry P365s with manual safeties. Will Sig wake up-- judging by the discussion in this thread-- and soon offer the XMACROs with a safety option? I'm holding my funds until then.