quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
Can I send you a Canik?

I think I'm just going to push my safe over at -30, at this point.

Ha! That's hilarious. I can totally see that.

-B

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:
Can I send you a Canik?

I think I'm just going to push my safe over at -30, at this point.

I think you have to turn it upside down, lift it up, tilt it 30 deg. off vertical, and drop it from six feet. I mean, of you're going to do it right.

I hope you don't have any 10mm in there.

Mine is 9mm.

I do have a Gen 1 G20 I could spike, or an original Delta Elite.

Ever since this whole issue began I've been spending some time examining my disassembled P320, the FCU and the slide in particular, trying to get my head around what might be happening.

I'd really like to see this now infamous -30 degree drop test performed on a P320 that has had its trigger solidly wedged/locked in the forward position, with a short length of Delrin rod or old toothbrush or whatever you've got that would work. At least then we'd have a better idea if it's really the trigger's movement rearward that is the issue, or if the sear/striker/striker block and related springs are doing the bad thing by themselves regardless of the trigger's action.

If you/we/they can't get the gun to go off with the trigger wedged in the forward position, it certainly seems to me like we'd have a much narrower and easier target to focus on for the "fix." Super light (plastic?) trigger, or perhaps some variation of either a hinged trigger ala M&P/509, or a blade-style trigger safety ala Glock and others? That said, if you wedge the trigger in the forward position and you still can get the gun to go bang, then you've got a much more complicated problem to work out for sure.

I'm mostly just thinking out loud here and I certainly have never played an engineer on T.V., I'm just the kind of guy who loves finding the easy way to do things because I'm lazy. So....has anyone any info on anyone doing the test as I described, with the trigger somehow held in its forward position?

Bruce says:

quote:

you're going to be very happy.

Should I take this to indicate that the modified pistol will be superior to the original configuration in ways other than drop safety?

Note, I am thus far only tangentially involved. I do not own a P320 but a nervous club member has threatened to take a sledge hammer to his. I offered to take it off his hands and have it modified. We will see.

Initially, I'm not motivated to send my X5 (competition only) in for a 6 week working vacation. However my reading of Bruces' post seems to indicate the final experience might just weigh out to be a net positive trigger (pun intended). Nice trigger to start, nicer after upgrade.

How can one lose? I'll still wait a bit though.

A little more info for those interested...

http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/g...op-shot-by-sig-p320/

SEPTEMBER 5, 2017 ANDREW TUOHY

I apologize for a lack of updates to the blog. I have been working feverishly for Omaha Outdoors writing product descriptions and creating video reviews.

As a result of one of those reviews, we discovered that the Sig P320 would fire when dropped at certain angles on the rear of the slide. At almost exactly the same time, a lawsuit was filed against Sig Sauer by a police officer who was injured when his holstered Sig P320 fell from the rear of his vehicle and discharged a round upon impact with the ground.

News of that lawsuit was spread far and wide in the gun community with some people blaming the officer or saying it was much ado about nothing and some questioning Sig’s contradictory statements on the matter.

I fall firmly in the latter camp, as Sig marketed the P320 as being drop safe without a tabbed trigger safety.

On August 31, Sheperis – the Connecticut police officer – filed an amended complaint. This complaint contains more of the “drop safe” claims from Sig Sauer as well as some very interesting allegations, and some pretty clear logic.

Let’s start with the logic. First, on August 4, 2017, Sig claimed that “there have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. Commercial market…” As Sheperis’ amended complaint clearly states, his police department purchased the commercial version of the P320 handgun, not the military XM17/M17. Sig was made aware of the injury to Sheperis, which occurred in January of 2017, within days of the incident.

(Bold in article)
Therefore, Sig was undeniably aware of at least one (1) drop-related P320 incident in the US Commercial Market prior to August 4, 2017.


As a followup to this note, the amended complaint states that Sig never drop tested the P320 which injured Officer Sheperis – that their only testing of the gun was to fire approximately 50 rounds through it and call it good. Despite attempts by the Stamford Police Department to assist Sig in investigating and testing the P320 for drop safety, “…Sig ceased communications with Officer Sheperis and the Stamford Police Department thereafter.”

This is in line with what I observed when I attempted to contact Sig with the results of our drop testing. Rather than proceed in good faith and treat the issue like the serious matter that it was, they chose not to respond before news of the testing broke elsewhere. This crisis was entirely created by, and fueled by, the actions of Sig Sauer.

Sheperis’ amended complaint also alleges that “the P320 failed German drop tests in April 2017, specifically the Ulm Proof House tests.”

If this is false, it will be very easy for Sig to simply produce results or statements from the Ulm Proof House to the contrary. However, given the events of the past month, my money is on Sheperis’ amended complaint being far more accurate than not on this issue.

I’ll leave you with this bit of humor from the amended complaint:

“The safety standards SIG claims the weapon passed all require a pistol to be dropped on a one-inch thick rubber mat, and land on the same rubber mat after being dropped, a testing criterion which is plainly outdated and absurd given that end users of the weapon do not walk around on rubber mats when carrying the weapon.”

AMENDMENT: The amended complaint adds a fourth count at the end, one of “Intentional infliction of emotional distress.” This is based upon the claim that “…defendant had knowledge of the drop safety defect with the commercial version of the P320 before Officer Sheperis was shot in January 2017.”

As I see it from my layperson’s perspective, Sig can either try to settle this or allow the case to proceed to discovery (there’s no way a motion to dismiss will be successful, at least not in full) and hope the fact that they knew the pistol had problems before 2017 doesn’t come out. I know they knew it had problems. They know they knew. Allowing the case to proceed would be foolish on Sig’s part – then again, so would selling a firearm as drop safe when it wasn’t.

I found it interesting that among the requests for relief made to the court was that Sig would have to “issue a recall notice or other enhanced, unambiguous warning to all purchasers of the P320 stating that the weapon is not drop safe with a chambered round, and can fire without a trigger pull.” This would be a far cry from the “voluntary upgrade” of August 8.

waiting for the dust to settle to deal with this...

-------------------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by Chris17404:
A little more info for those interested...

In the linked article, which is largely speculation by an unqualified person about a legal complaint, a reference is made to the web site:

https://www.sigsauer.com/produ...rearms/pistols/p320/

Tuohy claims that the web site's statement is false. The website states:

quote:

SAFETY WITHOUT COMPROMISE.
Safety isn’t negotiable. The P320 maximizes peace of mind with a robust safety system. Never again will you need to pull the trigger to disassemble your pistol. And, while available as an option, you won’t need a tabbed trigger safety for your gun to be drop safe.

Rehashing this issue is becoming mental masturbation. It's all been said. The statement on the website, however, is not false, though it could be misleading depending on how it is construed.

At this point, revisiting the issue of what Sig should have or could have done has some relevant to Officer Sheperis, but that's a legal matter with a vested interest. For those of us who do own P320's, the matter at hand is not what the relationship is between Sig and Officer Shepris, but what Sig is doing about the issue.

That matter remains to be addressed by those who begin to get their pistols back. Sig's P320 has met established standards, and statements to that effect are not false. An allegation has been made by Shepris that Sig has failed to disclose information from Ulm; that allegation has not been proven, simply made. After it's proven then it should be addressed, but not while it's before the court.

Tuohy alleges that Sig has made a false statement regarding "drop related incidents in the US Commercial market." Whether that statement was mean to encompass law enforcement and government sales, which are often considered different than civil sales in the context of commercial operations in many industries, is not clear.

So long as it's a legal complaint, then it can be addressed legally; all the arm-chair machinations by blog writers and posters on firearm web boards mean precisely squat to that legal proceeding.

I don't represent anyone but myself, and I have no intention of parking the pistols, Tuohy not withstanding. Woulda, coulda, shoulda doesn't fix what is.

This thread is like the excitement after the P320 won the MHS contract.

The thrill and excitement is withering for both.

I was at the LGS where I picked up my 320 Tacops. This place had removed all 320s from their shelves right after the recall/upgrade was announced. Now they have them all back out, claiming they were just received from Sig without the upgrade. The one clerk, who I've know for a bit and he's not a mall ninja said that he didn't think Sig would ever sell upgraded pistols as new items. That has to be horsh*t, right? I thought Sig wasn't shipping any more of the pre upgrade pistols. Also, it looked like the exact same roster of pistols they had for sale before the upgrade. I'm in there enough (unfortunately) to have noticed this.

quote:

Originally posted by andronicus:
I was at the LGS where I picked up my 320 Tacops. This place had removed all 320s from their shelves right after the recall/upgrade was announced. Now they have them all back out, claiming they were just received from Sig without the upgrade. The one clerk, who I've know for a bit and he's not a mall ninja said that he didn't think Sig would ever sell upgraded pistols as new items. That has to be horsh*t, right? I thought Sig wasn't shipping any more of the pre upgrade pistols. Also, it looked like the exact same roster of pistols they had for sale before the upgrade. I'm in there enough (unfortunately) to have noticed this.

So...

Your LGS pulls a bunch of product, which went where?

Then..

They put similar products out, non-upgraded, that are "just received from SIG?"

Bullshit. Unless they're dumb and ordered more pistols thinking they'd skip ahead and get new pistols not needing to be upgraded, only to get more guns that already existed.

These pistols sat in the back, and rather than continue to sit on them, they're going to try to convince people to buy them and do the recall individually.

SIG needs to fix all the pistols out in the wild, then they'll begin producing new pistols with the upgrade already done. This is the evolution of a product, and if you're not a company full of idiots, you don't continue producing an unmodified flawed product. Do people not think of all the "new old stock" just sitting in warehouses and gun store shelves, not to mention at the Sigarms factories?

The idea that they will "never sell upgraded pistols as new items" means that this person is a stone cold moron, who doesn't even know how SIG, Glock, or any other company has upgraded or modified their product over time.

Fellas....

If you've spent any time in any gun shop, you know that there is more BS there than a cattle farm. Particularly when it's someone's job to make you walk out the door with a gun.

Sig will never sell new, already upgraded guns, my ass.

Trust your instincts, particularly when talking to someone over a gun display case.

People who are buying P320s now, are either not going to bother with the upgrade, or they know full well they'll have to do it.

Now, if you've been shooting for a while, you'll have bumped into all manor of old guns that have not seen modifications that were "required." They can never get them all, which is why companies typically find a way to indicate an important change/upgrade.

With little effort, you can find Mausers that can fire by themselves, all the way to old Glocks that don't have all the updates.

Owning firearms takes some awareness, and a good portion of that "spidey sense" is just so you don't get boondoggled, hornswoggled, or sold a piece of outright garbage at a gun shop, gun show, or now in an online private sale.

Gun Ownership means responsibility in a variety of ways, and it means quite literally doing your homework. The availability of information on the internet, can be helpful, but it isn't a panacea.

I was just in a shop a couple of weeks ago in which the salesman promoted a P320. The customer asked about the upgrade, and the salesman told the customer that it was an option, but not necessary. The customer bought the P320.

A shop nearby which sells a large volume of handguns had a lot of P320's when the panic started. A couple of weeks later, all the pistols were gone. Initially they told me they hadn't heard of the mania, but then when I checked back, all the pistols had been sold.

The shop didn't change their prices. I thought at the time perhaps buyers were taking advantage of a price dive, during the panic, but nope. People just wanted more P320's, and maybe it was the publicity that drew them in there? Who knows?

I don't see many around right now.

I'd like to see a panic dump of P320 magazines. They seem to holding their value, too.

A good percentage of people who buy guns will be gun owners, not necessarily gun enthusiasts. As such, they will never research the gun before they buy. They buy what someone else suggests or buy what the gun store sales person shows them or buy what feels good in their hand.

Few shoot the gun before, or after purchasing. And fewer yet frequent gun forums where they may get the type of information we find here.

How many conscientious typical gun store employees will advise a potential buyer that a P320 may discharge if dropped from x feet on a hard surface at exactly x degrees and should be returned to SIG for a modification which may take several weeks.

You've been participating in this thread plenty, and know that facet has already been covered. Let's try to not just go round and round.

Bottom line, what you hear at a gun shop should not be accepted without verification by multiple other sources, who don't also work at that gun shop.

Intersting that some places are continuing to sell them and some are not.

quote:

Originally posted by EmpireState:
Intersting that some places are continuing to sell them and some are not.

No, it isn't "intersting."

It's par for the course, and no surprise. If you're here for another go round of what was pages and pages ago, take a powder.

If you'd like to review, just read the thread again. It's not Thanksgiving, there aren't second helpings, and no one is saving leftovers.

If you haven't had your fill, find it elsewhere. Particularly now that the company is in the process of modifying the pistols.

It's pretty clear who has been to the well too many times in this thread, guys. Give it a rest, gather your strength for when the next gun company hits you right in the feels.

Isn´t a concern an opinion?

According to German Police Standards it's good to go. Only the internet is worried.

quote:

Originally posted by OTD:
Isn´t a concern an opinion?

According to German Police Standards it's good to go. Only the internet is worried.

Oh well, what do those guys know?

Not sure exactly what you mean, but I'll take a crack at it.

Concerns, opinions, facts, alternative facts, who did what when, who knew what when, who shouldn't have done what who knew who knew what who did when. All of these things are of deep concern, and we must be ever vegitatant of corporations and their greedington.

Folks can certainly be upset or alarmed by what has transpired, but really, what transpired, transpired practically an age ago, if timed by teh intarwebs.

I get to come off like some sort of apologist for Sigarms, because I'm staff of a discussion board devoted to Sig firearms. But, that's not what I'm about.

I like guns that work, and products that do what the manufacturer says they'll do. I'm not thrilled that there is a flaw with the P320. Is anyone, beside people who don't actually like Sig for whatever reason?

There is a reasonable amount of concern, anguish, drama, or any other characterization that you care to use, that a reasonable adult should display over this. After a fashion, a given period of realization and expression, it's time to stop yelling at the volcano.

Particularly when the volcano is actually busy sorting out the problem.

If for some reason, someone has been living under a rock, or the Rock, and hasn't heard about the P320 upgrade/recall, well, they might have genuine feels to work through. For everyone else, who has been all up in this shit since it broke out, it's time to retire. Or at the very least take it somewhere that wants to hear kvetching about Sig non stop.

quote:

Originally posted by arcwelder76:

quote:

Originally posted by EmpireState:
Intersting that some places are continuing to sell them and some are not.

No, it isn't "intersting."

It's par for the course, and no surprise. If you're here for another go round of what was pages and pages ago, take a powder.

If you'd like to review, just read the thread again. It's not Thanksgiving, there aren't second helpings, and no one is saving leftovers.

If you haven't had your fill, find it elsewhere. Particularly now that the company is in the process of modifying the pistols.

It's pretty clear who has been to the well too many times in this thread, guys. Give it a rest, gather your strength for when the next gun company hits you right in the feels.

Oh I'm sorry. A few posts before the discussion was about gun shops selling/removing from sale/then they are back for sale. I happened to take that picture in the last couple weeks at a rather large gunstore in the area. And I found it interesting why some places would cease selling and others wouldnt. Apparently that gets me accused of being hit in the "feels".