SIGforum
P320 Drop Safety in Question (Formerly DPD Recall thread)
August 12, 2017, 01:39 PM
GraygunsP320 Drop Safety in Question (Formerly DPD Recall thread)
quote:
Originally posted by lordhamster:
quote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
Please read our first of a series of official statements on this subject of the newly discovered "Omaha drop" vulnerability.
My Crew and I have been intensely focused on this since it hit Monday.
Unlike the overhyped non-story from Dallas two weeks ago that a minority of opportunistic bloggers embellished with fabrications, this new story out of Omaha Outdoors is substantive.
And unlike our response to the largely fictional Dallas fiasco, our response to this new revelation is completely different, as befits the real concerns it imports.
-Bruce
Bruce, you were 100% correct in your response to the Dallas situation. However what people were reacting to I suspect are the following lines from page 6:
quote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
I am here to tell you that there is no safety issues with the P320.
This was a very hard to find safety issue. As someone in data analytics & software biz, I feel you on this. Looking at the same data you had to go on at the time, I'd have come to the same conclusion.
quote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
And, for that record, there has never been a verified instance of any P320 firing when dropped out of the nearly 350,000 sold to date, much less a factory-spec pistol.
I have looked for such reports and followed up on everything I find, for three solud years. It hasn't happened.
The recent YouTube video pupirtibg to show a "P320 drop test" failure is an obvious fake.
I have personally bounced these puppies off of everything I can find. No go bang, ever.
This crap needs to be dismissed. The P320 is safe.
-Bruce
I think in retrospect we got very lucky that the internet "trolls" indeed got interested. Because in this case they potentially may have saved a life or two in the process.
It wasn't a nasty meme that discovered this newly revealed issue. I wish it had been you instead, three years ago!
I made statements that anyone who knew the P320 believed were factual at that time.
Folks should rightly question me for for holding to reasonaed beliefs based on extensive experience.
But they only get to question my integrity as a few have, if they have ever instantly stood up to be counted squarely on the side of doing right, at such personal cost.
The instant I really grasped this new issue, my course was set. Other folks with no skin in the game can keep talking I suppose.
I hear retirement is boring anyhow.
Designer and custom pistolsmith at Grayguns Inc. Privileged to be R&D consultant to the world's greatest maker of fine firearms: SIG SAUER
Visit us at
http://opspectraining.com/product-cat/videos/ to order yours, and Thank You for making GGI the leader in custom SIG and HK pistolsmithing and high-grade components.
Bruce Gray, President
Grayguns Inc.
Grayguns.com / 888.585.4729
August 12, 2017, 01:42 PM
lordhamsterquote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
quote:
Originally posted by lordhamster:
quote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
Please read our first of a series of official statements on this subject of the newly discovered "Omaha drop" vulnerability.
My Crew and I have been intensely focused on this since it hit Monday.
Unlike the overhyped non-story from Dallas two weeks ago that a minority of opportunistic bloggers embellished with fabrications, this new story out of Omaha Outdoors is substantive.
And unlike our response to the largely fictional Dallas fiasco, our response to this new revelation is completely different, as befits the real concerns it imports.
-Bruce
Bruce, you were 100% correct in your response to the Dallas situation. However what people were reacting to I suspect are the following lines from page 6:
quote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
I am here to tell you that there is no safety issues with the P320.
This was a very hard to find safety issue. As someone in data analytics & software biz, I feel you on this. Looking at the same data you had to go on at the time, I'd have come to the same conclusion.
quote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
And, for that record, there has never been a verified instance of any P320 firing when dropped out of the nearly 350,000 sold to date, much less a factory-spec pistol.
I have looked for such reports and followed up on everything I find, for three solud years. It hasn't happened.
The recent YouTube video pupirtibg to show a "P320 drop test" failure is an obvious fake.
I have personally bounced these puppies off of everything I can find. No go bang, ever.
This crap needs to be dismissed. The P320 is safe.
-Bruce
I think in retrospect we got very lucky that the internet "trolls" indeed got interested. Because in this case they potentially may have saved a life or two in the process.
It wasn't a nasty meme that discovered this newly revealed issue.
I made ststements that anyone who knew the P320 believed were factual at that time.
Folks should rightly question me for for holding to reasonaed beliefs based on extensive experience. But they only get to wuestion my integrity if they have ever stood up to be counted squarely on the side of doing right, at such personal cost.
The instant I really grasped this new issue, my course was set. Other folks with no skin in the game can keep talking I suppose.
I hear retirement is boring snyhow.
-Bruce
Bruce, as I said, I 100% believe your intentions are unimpeachable. No reasonable person could have foreseen this issue IMO. Stay the course and I will continue to patronize your site. Thanks for all your contributions here!
August 12, 2017, 01:57 PM
ArtyThanks, Bruce Gray. I have two P320s, both with PELT triggers and HD Trijicon sights. I really like both very much.
I have only dropped a pistol once, back in 1977. But it is definitely a possibility that I may drop one again. What concerns me is that if the P320 fires when dropped, it will fire upward, which would be dangerous to anyone standing near it.
I'm looking forward to hearing more on this issue and what should and can be done. Again, thanks, Bruce, I respect your opinion.
"Ride to the sound of the big guns." August 12, 2017, 02:53 PM
ensigmaticquote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
Grayguns Inc. is working very closely with our partner SIG SAUER to address the REAL concerns our mutual customers rightfully have about their P320's.
Our customers who have ever had P320 competition or carry work, or who have installed a PELT trigger, will be offered an array of excellent options that each preserve or enhance the original value proposition they paid good money for. SIG will respect our work, and we will offer better alternatives either way. These details need to be ironed out, and that's what we're doing now. As we were all blindsided by this, it will take time.
...
We are seeing to it that not one mutual SIG / Grayguns Inc. customer will be left stranded with a pistol he or she doesn't fully trust, nor lose a dime of investment value.
I expected no less. I was not disappointed. Somehow I did not expect I would be.
Thanks for your comments, Bruce.
"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher August 12, 2017, 03:07 PM
smithnsigOk, the DPD thing was actually something different than Omahagate. I think these threads merged, but really they are unrelated. I think that's where some confusion has entered in to it.
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TCB all the time...
August 12, 2017, 03:15 PM
jdmb03quote:
Recent events indicate that dropping the P320 beyond U.S. standards for safety may cause an unintentional discharge.
Dropping the gun on the rear of the slide seems like it should be a standard test for striker and hammer fired guns.
August 12, 2017, 03:31 PM
ScopeX5Depending on how Sig acts with this whole situation. I've lost some faith in Sig. I still love my X5s but I'm so so on my P320 as of now. Defiantely looking at other platforms at the moment. I wish Sig would spend more time and effort on engineering.
August 12, 2017, 03:41 PM
RX-79Gquote:
Originally posted by Grayguns:
I suppose that some of the members here who are taking potshots at me...
Sanctimony is cheap when you don't have to write the cheques we are.
...the hate and nastiness I see here, and which infects all of social media. Push back on the minority of jerks whose lives seem reduced to
tearing others down in ceaselessly deconstructive arguing.
And stop posting innuendo, speculation and repeated lies as if they were facts.
There is practically nothing asserted in this entire thread that I can say is entirely factual.
Our industry is eating itself alive with this shit, and with the industry goes the sports, civil rights and traditions that it supports.
Everyone needs to stop it. Now.
Somebof my fellow Forum members piss me off sometimes...
Hi Bruce,
Do you think you could be a little more specific what you consider "hate, sanctimony, shit, lies, nastiness, potshots and jerks" as opposed to those expressing honest criticism, frustration or discussion of the trail of bread crumbs that surrounds these events?
It might create better understanding between you and the public if we could tell if you are angrily denouncing any and all criticism of SIG, or just a particular kind of negativity. I'm sure you certainly can understand a certain level of frustration in the way this particular story has been shared with the public and skepticism stemming from the Stamford incident and Mr. Cohen's comments about "legitimizing mishandling".
August 12, 2017, 03:58 PM
XinTXquote:
Originally posted by RC Fan:
quote:
Originally posted by XinTX:
I have heard this as well. That the testing for this and other firearms don't include the drop configuration that's being discussed here. Anyone know for certain? I'm not knowledgeable on those ANSI test standards.
For whatever reason, this particular drop angle is not included in the standard drop tests.
Might be interesting if someone would test a few other pistols using the same drop and see what happens. I have a feeling more than one would also fail.
_______________________
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.” Ayn Rand
“If we relinquish our rights because of fear, what is it exactly, then, we are fighting for?” Sen. Rand Paul
August 12, 2017, 04:02 PM
ether[QUOTE]Originally posted by RX-79G:
Hi Bruce,
QUOTE]
Brother, I appreciate our discussions here, and I have my own thoughts about the latest official post, but you're skating. I woulda rather PM'ed you, but I couldn't. I can already tell ya Para's in no mood. Can we both cool it till at least Monday?
August 12, 2017, 04:12 PM
RX-79Gquote:
Originally posted by ether:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RX-79G:
Hi Bruce,
QUOTE]
Brother, I appreciate our discussions here, and I have my own thoughts about the latest official post, but you're skating. I woulda rather PM'ed you, but I couldn't. I can already tell ya Para's in no mood. Can we both cool it till at least Monday?
I realize you think I'm screwing with Bruce, but I am genuinely trying to communicate to him that some of the derision I have read aimed at him in recent days on several websites is because he sounds both angry and broadly dismissive. "Tone".
I don't think Bruce Gray is anything but a decent fellow and talented gunsmith. Which is why I hope people do not misunderstand his intent with some of the angry messages he has posted.
August 12, 2017, 04:16 PM
RHINOWSOquote:
Originally posted by XinTX:
Might be interesting if someone would test a few other pistols using the same drop and see what happens. I have a feeling more than one would also fail.
Maybe, but thus far no one has found one. And you know people have been trying.
A guy did the G19 along with the P320, and the G19 didn't fire at all. Multiple versions of the P320 did.
Ernest Langdon dropped his personal, pimped out 92G multiple times, on the hammer, and nothing.
Until there is evidence, it looks like it's only the P320 right now. I mean, just sticking with the facts at hand and not bringing other makers into this SIG issue, as has been suggested by some recently.
August 12, 2017, 04:18 PM
parabellumRX-79G, I've had enough of you in this thread. You've managed to make a nuisance of yourself. That's the plain and simple of it. You need to stop this. No more.
You can make of that what you wish. You're forcing my hand.
August 12, 2017, 04:20 PM
XinTXquote:
Originally posted by ScopeX5:
Depending on how Sig acts with this whole situation. I've lost some faith in Sig. I still love my X5s but I'm so so on my P320 as of now. Defiantely looking at other platforms at the moment. I wish Sig would spend more time and effort on engineering.
I'm quite the opposite. I had heard about this elsewhere and came here to see what was being said. After reading a few of Bruces posts on the subject, I have no doubt this issue will be promptly addressed and fixed. A LOT of P320's have been in use for a while now. And this issue is only now rearing its head.
Heck, I was at a gun show this morning and had someone had a .357 P320 on the table I might just have snapped it up.
_______________________
“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.” Ayn Rand
“If we relinquish our rights because of fear, what is it exactly, then, we are fighting for?” Sen. Rand Paul
August 12, 2017, 04:31 PM
sns3guppyquote:
Originally posted by RX-79G:
[
I realize you think I'm screwing with Bruce, but I am genuinely trying to communicate to him that some of the derision I have read aimed at him in recent days on several websites is because he sounds both angry and broadly dismissive. "Tone".
I don't think Bruce Gray is anything but a decent fellow and talented gunsmith. Which is why I hope people do not misunderstand his intent with some of the angry messages he has posted.
Bruce seems perfectly able to speak for himself, but your posts have been continouusly argumentative, provacative, inciteful, paranoid, and at a minimum, excessive. If any poster embodies that tone, it's most assuredly been you.
Monday's on the doorstep. Would it kill you to give it a rest and see what transpires? You post, but to argue and draw fire. Enough.
August 12, 2017, 04:31 PM
sleepla8erquote:
Originally posted by RX-79G:
Hi Bruce,
Do you think you could be a little more specific...
There is a first time for everything, "Add RX-79G to my Ignore List"
.
August 12, 2017, 04:32 PM
wolffy88I think it would go a long way if Sig were to state on Monday that they are working with industry testers to add this specific test to the testing methodology. Afterall, one of Sig's reps stated that he didn't think the current standard was good enough.
-wolff
"In the absence of light, darkness prevails." - Professor Bruttenholm August 12, 2017, 04:33 PM
jehzsaquote:
RX-79G, I've had enough
Grazie mille.
"I'm sorry, was the tone too harsh?"

ETA: It was sounding off like the Progressive advertisement consultant: "What we need, no--- what is required, is more commercials with Flo".
***************************
Knowing more by accident than on purpose.
August 12, 2017, 05:49 PM
Tubetonequote:
Originally posted by wolffy88:
I think it would go a long way if Sig were to state on Monday that they are working with industry testers to add this specific test to the testing methodology. Afterall, one of Sig's reps stated that he didn't think the current standard was good enough.
Great idea. To take a problem and emerge as a leader seems to be good business that's concerned about the right things.
_______________________________
NRA Life Member
NRA Certified Range Safety Officer
August 12, 2017, 06:13 PM
Graniteguyquote:
Originally posted by ScopeX5:
Depending on how Sig acts with this whole situation. I've lost some faith in in the Sig. I still love my X5s but I'm so so on my P320 as of now. Defiantely looking at other platforms at the moment. I wish Sig would spend more time and effort on engineering.
Are you serious? Sig develops and engineers more new and innovative products than than any 3 other manufacturers combined. I have not lost any faith in Sig - the 320 is a solid product and I am not in the habit of fumbling loaded weapons at some peculiar 30 degree angle so my 320 will stay right where but belongs - in my holster, no upgrade required.