quote:

Originally posted by Depami:
A bunch of BS! A jihadist with a machete on a suicide mission isn't going to "break contact" until dead.

I guess if I lived in the Middle East that would be a concern. I think I would have better odds of hitting the power ball jackpot before that would happen, at least where I live.

quote:

Originally posted by lunchbox:

quote:

Originally posted by Depami:
A bunch of BS! A jihadist with a machete on a suicide mission isn't going to "break contact" until dead.

I guess if I lived in the Middle East that would be a concern. I think I would have better odds of hitting the power ball jackpot before that would happen, at least where I live.

Well, why do you carry a gun at all then? The odds of you having to use one or slightly less, and you seem to be big on "odds".

I do not get why people paint themselves a "no, hit me like this" scenario when they talk about carrying a pistol.

I'm not big on being a type that sees a jihadi behind every tree. But, I am big on being non-denominational when it comes to the threats I can stop. People that carry guns to shoo the coyote away are really unlucky when they run into a true wolf. And it doesn't have to be a jihadi, some third strikers and tweekers fit the bill nicely. Toss in the delusional mentally ill, and YOUR society has a host of people that won't "break contact" that are on a "suicide mission" frankly because they have nothing to lose and aren't afraid of you and your little pop gun that you've already discounted into a neat little file called "la la la won't happen to me".

In years past I used to read every article I could find regarding this topic to try and find the perfect magic bullet. I enjoyed reading the articles from Ed Sanow, Leroy Thompson, along with the from Jim Cirillo, and Bill Jordan.

Since that time I have matured (somewhat), worked in law enforcement in various capacities, re-enlisted to go to Afghanistan and now work at the Medical Examiners Officers.

As we know Charlotte is a charnel house and if things go right I will be heading to Memphis to work in their Medical Examiners Office or back on patrol.

Just like Sig209, I see GSW's almost daily. Since I started at the M.E. Office in the fall of 2017 I have worked numerous homicides and suicides where the suspects/individuals used everything from 5.56 to .22 caliber. I have seen individuals shot with a .22 drop almost instantly and others hit with a .45 ACP and go double digits yards before collapsing.

I can say without a doubt it is shot placement and the path the bullet takes after entering the body.

With the advancement in bullet design, quality control, controlled expansion, etc.. I think the best self defense caliber is one which the individual is most comfortable with.

I like the .40SW and that is what most of my pistols are chambered for. The GF likes the 9mm, so we have a small contingent of pistols chambered for it. So I am comfortable carrying either. I am looking for a small 9mm to carry such as the P365, Shield or the new Mossberg. Not so much for the caliber but because summer is coming.

I know I am a dying breed and many PD/SO are going to 9mm, but I like the .40 SW to carry on duty.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mrapteam666,

quote:

Originally posted by apprentice:

quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:
I declared this debate dead years ago---

shot placement !

I work in the OR - Level One trauma center - and see gunshot wounds fairly routinely

survival wounds basically pattern as 'high velocity' ie rifle or 'low velocity' as in handgun

hitting bone with a high velocity round makes a big difference also

-------------------------------

Have you observed enough to put a line between low and high velocity?
I realize there will likely be a range, but what fps at impact would you say is pretty much guaranteed to produce a high velocity result?

Sorry for the drift, but your post suggests a rare and expert opinion might be available.

The national conference on Ballistics Trauma I attended a few years ago posited the threshold at being ~2,000fps

here is a pretty cool link with info

https://webpath.med.utah.edu/T...IAL/GUNS/GUNINJ.html

basically a tutorial for clinicians

In the OR the focus obviously is on treating the patient - not investigating - so I think the folks with autopsy experience can be more definitive

but in terms of what we see in the OR - it's definitely 'hit something bad - Houston we have a problem...'

If not - it's no worse than many non-GSW traumas...

--------------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by lunchbox:
I guess if I lived in the Middle East that would be a concern. I think I would have better odds of hitting the power ball jackpot before that would happen, at least where I live.

paraphrasing many astute tacticians over the years:

1. have a reliable gun

2. largest caliber you can be confident and proficient (ie shoot well) with (38 / 9mm / 45 / 40 ... whatever)

3. practice so you can achieve effective hits when the time comes

------------------------------------------------

What I get out of all this is to use a rifle if at all possible. If not, try to aim a little better. Ever see those Chicago stats on how few murders there are compared to shootings? If you're going to use a pistol, you probably should practice a lot.

So this thread started discussing the premise that any little peashooter will do, because it's primary purpose is to scare off an attacker. And we've now circled around to the idea that all pistols are nearly useless, and a rifle should be kept handy.

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
So this thread started discussing the premise that any little peashooter will do, because it's primary purpose is to scare off an attacker. And we've now circled around to the idea that all pistols are nearly useless, and a rifle should be kept handy.

'Murica

---------------------------

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by lunchbox:

quote:

Originally posted by Depami:
A bunch of BS! A jihadist with a machete on a suicide mission isn't going to "break contact" until dead.

I guess if I lived in the Middle East that would be a concern. I think I would have better odds of hitting the power ball jackpot before that would happen, at least where I live.

Well, why do you carry a gun at all then? The odds of you having to use one or slightly less, and you seem to be big on "odds".

I do not get why people paint themselves a "no, hit me like this" scenario when they talk about carrying a pistol.

I'm not big on being a type that sees a jihadi behind every tree. But, I am big on being non-denominational when it comes to the threats I can stop. People that carry guns to shoo the coyote away are really unlucky when they run into a true wolf. And it doesn't have to be a jihadi, some third strikers and tweekers fit the bill nicely. Toss in the delusional mentally ill, and YOUR society has a host of people that won't "break contact" that are on a "suicide mission" frankly because they have nothing to lose and aren't afraid of you and your little pop gun that you've already discounted into a neat little file called "la la la won't happen to me".

I guess I should have better illustrated my point so I guess your response is fair. I was more poking at someone running around afraid of a jihadist in North America. Seems to be at least a few guys posting in the forum that actually worry about some Muslim jihad in their back yard. For me that’s not a real concern, A tweeker or crazy homeless person is most likely the threat where I live especially when I travel to the shit hole of Portland. I carry whatever I can conceal, a glock 20 isn’t going to work with shorts and a t-shirt on a hot summer day but my glock 43 does, sometimes an LCP. Glock 19 works fine in the winter. Honestly at the end of the day it’s always a compromise when carrying a pistol, I would ultimately feel way more safe packing an AR15 everywhere but it’s not very practical even is there is a true wolf looking for me.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by lunchbox:
I guess if I lived in the Middle East that would be a concern. I think I would have better odds of hitting the power ball jackpot before that would happen, at least where I live.

Sure is.

"breaking contact"...I was taught that meant delivering an overwhelming amount of firepower on or near the target so they keep their heads down and reconsider their life choices.

Anyone know where I can get a OWB holster for this?

^
Don't need a holster, just a sling.

Love to hear the police radio chatter when that get reported.

There will always be a compromise between bullet diameter and capacity. Right now, with available ammo, a 9mm is a good compromise. I love the .4 calibers and have no issue with someone that carries one. Caliber aside, I think the next big evolution in self defense pistols will be optics.

quote:

Originally posted by 10round:
There will always be a compromise between bullet diameter and capacity. Right now, with available ammo, a 9mm is a good compromise. I love the .4 calibers and have no issue with someone that carries one. Caliber aside, I think the next big evolution in self defense pistols will be optics.

Time will tell, but as with the SIG RX mods and now the X-Compact, and yesterday's news release from S&W, making optic options available seems to be the current wave.

quote:

Originally posted by lunchbox:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by lunchbox:

quote:

Originally posted by Depami:
A bunch of BS! A jihadist with a machete on a suicide mission isn't going to "break contact" until dead.

I guess if I lived in the Middle East that would be a concern. I think I would have better odds of hitting the power ball jackpot before that would happen, at least where I live.

Well, why do you carry a gun at all then? The odds of you having to use one or slightly less, and you seem to be big on "odds".

I do not get why people paint themselves a "no, hit me like this" scenario when they talk about carrying a pistol.

I'm not big on being a type that sees a jihadi behind every tree. But, I am big on being non-denominational when it comes to the threats I can stop. People that carry guns to shoo the coyote away are really unlucky when they run into a true wolf. And it doesn't have to be a jihadi, some third strikers and tweekers fit the bill nicely. Toss in the delusional mentally ill, and YOUR society has a host of people that won't "break contact" that are on a "suicide mission" frankly because they have nothing to lose and aren't afraid of you and your little pop gun that you've already discounted into a neat little file called "la la la won't happen to me".

I guess I should have better illustrated my point so I guess your response is fair. I was more poking at someone running around afraid of a jihadist in North America. Seems to be at least a few guys posting in the forum that actually worry about some Muslim jihad in their back yard. For me that’s not a real concern, A tweeker or crazy homeless person is most likely the threat where I live especially when I travel to the shit hole of Portland. I carry whatever I can conceal, a glock 20 isn’t going to work with shorts and a t-shirt on a hot summer day but my glock 43 does, sometimes an LCP. Glock 19 works fine in the winter. Honestly at the end of the day it’s always a compromise when carrying a pistol, I would ultimately feel way more safe packing an AR15 everywhere but it’s not very practical even is there is a true wolf looking for me.

I never said anything about worrying about some Muslim in my back yard, I merely pointed out one type of threat that won't break contact until dead.

There's a big difference between some thug that wants your wallet or watch or phone and a crack head robber that just killed three cops and is running from 15 more and wants your car.

You never know what you might encounter and having the mindset that one or two shots of any caliber will scare the threat away is foolish.

If you carry at all you might as well be prepared for the worst as best you can.

I see .40 as being the best compromise. Most of the mag capacity of the 9mm (in the same size gun) and most of the effectiveness of a .45 (usually in a smaller gun.)

quote:

Originally posted by 10round:
There will always be a compromise between bullet diameter and capacity. Right now, with available ammo, a 9mm is a good compromise. I love the .4 calibers and have no issue with someone that carries one. Caliber aside, I think the next big evolution in self defense pistols will be optics.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by lunchbox:

quote:

Originally posted by Depami:
A bunch of BS! A jihadist with a machete on a suicide mission isn't going to "break contact" until dead.

I guess if I lived in the Middle East that would be a concern. I think I would have better odds of hitting the power ball jackpot before that would happen, at least where I live.

Well, why do you carry a gun at all then? The odds of you having to use one or slightly less, and you seem to be big on "odds".

I do not get why people paint themselves a "no, hit me like this" scenario when they talk about carrying a pistol.

I'm not big on being a type that sees a jihadi behind every tree. But, I am big on being non-denominational when it comes to the threats I can stop. People that carry guns to shoo the coyote away are really unlucky when they run into a true wolf. And it doesn't have to be a jihadi, some third strikers and tweekers fit the bill nicely. Toss in the delusional mentally ill, and YOUR society has a host of people that won't "break contact" that are on a "suicide mission" frankly because they have nothing to lose and aren't afraid of you and your little pop gun that you've already discounted into a neat little file called "la la la won't happen to me".

+1

THE most important mindset item I took away from Gunsite was " it WILL happen to me at some point", from a gunfight survivor.

Hairsplitting nonsense IMO.

Carry the largest caliber that you can both:

Conceal appropriately

Shoot accurately

That's it.