I’m pretty good on these, but would like a 2nd opinion

Nickel 2nd model 44 hand ejector
Finish is spectacular with perfect roll marks but I’m guessing a factory refinish
Stamped E4 and N under the grips

Rifling is pretty thin and there is a football shaped cutout on the top strap

Looks like someone machined it to clean up some flame cutting

What say the collective ?
https://i.postimg.cc/vT75JRV7/...-A-155-EEDAFD172.jpg

Im no expert, but that does not seem like an ideal place to be milling material out of the top strap. That gun is also incredibly clean around the forcing cone...either somebody went way above and beyond with cleaning (I'm really anal, but I've never figured out how to get all traces of lead spatter out from the area between the forcing cone and top strap on my revolvers), or that gun hasn't been shot much, if at all, since that milling/refinishing was done.

That indentation is called a "fouling cup" and is found on early S&Ws. I faintly recall it was designed originally for black powder ammo. Looks like a nice gun from the 1 pic you provide, but more pics would be helpful.

Jerry

It’s in a pawn shop
I can get it for $1000
If it’s original finish that’s a steal
20k serial range, early 19-teens
Original grips are mint, just like the finish
Tight action
Rifling isn’t real pronounced, but they probably weren’t back then I guess, ever seen one with stronger rifling now that I think of it

Has hole for lanyard ring, but no ring present

Not an expert, but agree with "fouling cup".

Your "N" stamp I believe means nickel. If s&w refinished the revolver the stamp could be R-N or circle with a "p" or stamp in a diamond. And sometimes a star on the butt. Probably more versions.

Alot of older colts also had "fouling cups" too.

.

The fouling cup thing is good info...thank you guys for sharing!

That fouling cup is awfully clean. I suggest you go to the S&W forum.

Agree, one of the S&W boards will get you a lot of information, but you should have a full set of pictures.
But while we are here, are the hammer and trigger plated or case colors?

^^^^
I third going to the Smith forum. I have the SCSW 3rd edition electronically and I did a search for "fouling" and "cup" and "fouling cup" and nothing relating to that machined notch came up.

That is interesting. I have never seen that before.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
Agree, one of the S&W boards will get you a lot of information, but you should have a full set of pictures.
But while we are here, are the hammer and trigger plated or case colors?

Faded color case hardened
Just grayish now
Not nickel, that would be a dead give away

I’ve owned and worked on a lot of old S&Ws and have never seen that, but that doesn’t really mean anything.

One thing to note is the end of the barrel would make it impossible to machine that cut without removing the barrel, so either someone did that or this is from the factory.

That is most definitely a fouling cup. It was factory done.

I collect old S&W and Colt revolvers from the mid 1920s-begining of WWII. S&W and Colt revolvers from the early 20th century to the mid-late 30s can sometimes be found with the cup.
As mentioned, the cups were a feature of late black powder revolvers but it was not unusual to find later revolvers with the cup as Colt and S&W used the older frames up. There was no safety issue using a frame with a fouling cup with smokeless powder ammunition so the mfg. Were not going to throw away good frames

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:
^^^^
I third going to the Smith forum. I have the SCSW 3rd edition electronically and I did a search for "fouling" and "cup" and "fouling cup" and nothing relating to that machined notch came up.

That is interesting. I have never seen that before.

You won't find information about fouling cups on old S&W and Colt revolver frames in any edition of SCSW. These great books are similar to "blue books" and are heavily focused on the values of S&W models in varying conditions and on the rareness of certain models. That's why Supica and Nahas bring out new editions.

Even Roy Jink's "History of Smith and Wesson" doesn't mention fouling cups.

After 1899 when smokeless powder cartridges caught on the manufacturers eventually stopped milling the revolver top straps for the fouling cups. It eliminated extra manufacturing steps and reduced costs slightly. Older frames were used up in no particular order.
I have a 1927 lettered Colt 2" bbl. Police Positive Special (aka Pre-Detective Special). It was the first one I have that I noticed the cup. It's always a surprise when one first notices this discontinued feature


Do a search at the S&W Forum and the Colt Forum using the phrase fouling cup and you'll see a number of threads.

quote:

Originally posted by rmfnla:
I’ve owned and worked on a lot of old S&Ws and have never seen that, but that doesn’t really mean anything.

One thing to note is the end of the barrel would make it impossible to machine that cut without removing the barrel, so either someone did that or this is from the factory.

Trust me, it's factory

^^^^
Good info, thanks. Love me some old Smith's.

Fouling cup seems plausible but I would also post your inquiry on the S&W forum. There are some very knowledgeable people on that forum who can probably provide you with the answer to your question.

Check all you want. I gave you guys the correct answer.

You don't even know me but you presume I don't know what I'm talking about.

(self censored)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Malysh, October 30, 2021 10:47 PM

Yep, its factory. I sold off my older 44s, but kept my factory targets. They don't have it, but that's probably because they're target's and late 1930s (they only made 96 of them). Yeah, I have 3 of those.

I don't post over there these days. Not nearly as nice a place as when Para owned it.

rburg and I are long time S&W Forum members.

It should be mentioned that the fouling cup was not exclusive to 44s.

I am by no means an expert, and I hope I am not accused of douchebaggery. I just looked at my two 2nd Model Hand Ejectors. One is in .44 Special and dates from about 1925 or 26. One left the factory in .455 but was later factory converted to .45 Colt. I have a factory letter that verifies this. They both have the cut or groove at the rear of the barrel. I was curious, so I also looked at an early .45 Colt New Service. It had the same thing.