If you move the gun off the line after aiming.


And, ' Learn how to jerk the trigger without moving the gun. Because, if you're going to shoot fast, you're going to jerk the trigger anyway.' -- Rob Leatham


* Thirty per cent is on seeing the sights. The other 70% is on releasing the trigger without moving the gun. *

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I

Whatcha think?

I've watched this a dozen times over the past 5-6 months. The more I see it the more I agree. If you're Jerry Michulak how can you not jerk the trigger ? I wish I had arms like Jerry or Ron and it might make a difference.

That is a good video, I've watched it a few times before.

The problem I have with terms like "jerking," "slapping," etc. is that they are very subjective and also even relative to the action type.

The same motion and forces "slapping" or "jerking" a trigger on a tuned 1911 will likely have different results than with a DA/SA or DAO gun.

Further, if you hit the A zone were you really "jerking" the trigger? If you "jerk" it straight to the rear w/o disturbing the sights, was that a jerk at all?

People often vomit this back with little or no reality to the context.

My personal favorite is the regurgitation of “You can do anything you want to the trigger as long as you don’t disturb the sights”. In theory, it’s true. However, practicality and reality shows it to be a lie. People claim this, and can pull it off with a trigger measured in ounces, but try it with a service pistol and the lie shows.

It’s funny that everyone says it, but few seem to be able to “do anything you want with the trigger” with a NY 1 and a precise target at 18 yards. The excuse making process then starts as performance fades. Most people over value their level of skill when it comes to trigger control. Entire training systems have been created around techniques that don’t support speed, precision, and accuracy.

Catchy phrase, though.

Agree with Jones. Leatham is good, no question. But putting his "unmovable" gun practice into play into a real world deadly force confrontation seems unrealistic to me.

I took a class with Rob and Vickers out in Arizona a few years ago. I thought I had my grip and stance down, but after Rob saw me shoot and made a few suggestions it was a game changer for me. The man is truly “The Great One”!! The stuff I saw him do with multiple pistols including students pistols in the class made your jaw drop. It’s not human. I highly recommend taking a class with him.

Vickers is an unbelievable shot also and I love his classes as well. LAV can shoot too. Combine these two guys and you got the tactical side and competition side in a 3 day class which I’ll take again. It’s that good.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Entire training systems have been created around techniques that don’t support speed, precision, and accuracy.

Yes. Considering Robbie's achievements, barely matched by anyone in the world, in a field of speed, precision, and accuracy, his system is not one of those. People get hung up on him personally shooting hair triggers, and miss both the content and context. During my too short semi-private three hours with him I shot my carry gun. A long-ass pull of LEM trigger that's impossible to slap. Robbie's principles still applied.

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Entire training systems have been created around techniques that don’t support speed, precision, and accuracy.

Yes. Considering Robbie's achievements, barely matched by anyone in the world, in a field of speed, precision, and accuracy, his system is not one of those. People get hung up on him personally shooting hair triggers, and miss both the content and context. During my too short semi-private three hours with him I shot my carry gun. A long-ass pull of LEM trigger that's impossible to slap. Robbie's principles still applied.

I don't miss a thing on content and context. Not only do I get it, but Robbie and I discussed it at the NRA show in Houston several years ago. The short practical exercise ended with Robbie going "Huh, you're actually pretty good at this I see". Plus the fact that no matter what gun I picked up out of the counter, I could break a fast shot without the gun moving, and it didn't have to be a "hair" trigger.

I want this video to continue to float around.

I want people to predictably dote on his accomplishments. Hell, I wish it played on a time loop 24/7 on CNN. Because when people can't sustain what he is saying, they go in search of techniques that do work across the board. "AIMING IS USELESS" is really great for business.

Every time that this comes up, it ends with people hanging off of Robbie's accomplishments or cute little comments like "I think Robbie knows a thing or two about shooting stuff LOL, how many times have you won.....". None of which changes the fact, that while it is a cool video, and he's a great shooter, it isn't repeatable to most anyone shooting service grade guns. While people want to claim the "principles" apply, practical application does not. A few weeks ago, I went to a class with a bunch of Green Berets who believed this to the letter. Once we got past about 10 yards and the targets became discreet, they couldn't hit a thing with any speed. They then dropped into my second favorite excuse "Well, in a gunfight....."

Robbie is a smart guy, accomplished shooter, and someone that I admire. But the "AIMING IS USELESS" doesn't work across the board as a sustainable system for a wide array of shooters and target ranges and difficulty. You have to have far more control to be a successful, well rounded shooter.

If you still don't believe it and want a no BS look, use the principles, shoot 700 Agg with a service grade pistol, and get back to me on your score. Aiming is useless, the principles are sound, and whatnot.

Aiming is useless if a shooter inputs something into a gun that disrupts the alignment. That's the point of "aiming is useless" part.

Learn to jerk a trigger means learn to work your trigger aggressively without delivering wrong inputs. Whether you slap 18 oz 1911 trigger or prep 7 lbs service gun trigger doesn't enter into discussion. You learn to manipulate it with technique and degree of care, or carelessness, that your gun allows or requires, but you learn to be as aggressive as you can.

Would you take a 76% on 18-02 yesterday with a G19x with one changed spring in lieu of 700 on aggregate with service, considering that I am a myopic talentless dude who started to shoot in his 40s while working a decidedly non-operator job with a minimal 60 hr/week commitment? A friendly handicap from a pro to an amateur?

quote:

Originally posted by YVK:
Aiming is useless if a shooter inputs something into a gun that disrupts the alignment. That's the point of "aiming is useless" part.

Learn to jerk a trigger means learn to work your trigger aggressively without delivering wrong inputs. Whether you slap 18 oz 1911 trigger or prep 7 lbs service gun trigger doesn't enter into discussion. You learn to manipulate it with technique and degree of care, or carelessness, that your gun allows or requires, but you learn to be as aggressive as you can.

Would you take a 76% on 18-02 yesterday with a G19x with one changed spring in lieu of 700 on aggregate with service, considering that I am a myopic talentless dude who started to shoot in his 40s while working a decidedly non-operator job with a minimal 60 hr/week commitment? A friendly handicap from a pro to an amateur?

Repeating the technique again still doesn’t make it work any better. If it worked, I’d be teaching it. Hell, if it worked, it would be the technique that Robbie uses when he shoots Bianchi. But, it isn’t. And I can’t speak to it like I can Bianchi, i’d Say he doesn’t use it on far targets with a no shoot, nor when the gun is strong hand or weak hand only. It’s just not sustainable.

If you like using a technique that is very limited, have at it. But, imagine the performance you could have if you had sustainable trigger control.

As a matter of personal practice, I prep a Glock trigger at anything past 7 yards and on some targets closer than that. When I shoot my Shadow 2, which is heavier than a pull of its single action, things might be different. I honestly don't think that this part is the principal message here. I've been told that the Opspec classes are heavily trigger control-centric so I do understand why you might have a stronger reaction.
It is a long discussion and it is not really about me, but the reason why I like this video is that "aiming is useless if you can't keep the alignment" part. You're right, people tend to overestimate their trigger skills and I do try to stay realistic about mine, but I feel that most of my misses, or most of my really upsetting misses, happen because the rest of the hand that's attached to my trigger finger does something stupid while that finger is working that trigger at speed.

Roger that

Well there are times it seems pretty useless to me but I digress.

good stuff

-------------------------------------

A bit of hyperbole no doubt. I think what he is getting at is that most people miss because of their inability to cleanly pull a trigger, not because of their inability to properly line up their sights on a target.

quote:

Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
A bit of hyperbole no doubt. I think what he is getting at is that most people miss because of their inability to cleanly pull a trigger, not because of their inability to properly line up their sights on a target.

This is exactly Robbie’s point. And, I have trained with him a bunch of times.

Aiming is useless, if you have a fairly stable trigger pull and are using a laser sight!

I agree with trigger control. I do a little better with crappy triggers. I'm use to my gen 4 Glock and I can feel the entire path of the trigger up til the break. When I started shooting a P320 the trigger was so much better it took me awhile to get use to it.

Aiming is a gimmick. Sights are a crutch for the talentless.

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
Aiming is a gimmick. Sights are a crutch for the talentless.