quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by CPD SIG:

"Don't try to shoot a group"? Who in the hell is saying that?

I get the difference between "Bullseye" shooting and "Combat" shooting...
But WTF?

I’ve read different versions of it here. “You want to spread the damage out and not shoot all in the same spot”. The nature of gunfights are that the shooter and opponent are rarely both standing still necessitating the need to “spread the shots around”. With movement thrown in, that is how you get the 13 percent hit rate that LE enjoys in actual shootings. That spread becomes misses.

I first heard it at a SWAT school at Chattanooga PD in the early 2000s. It was really overused at our academy up till about five years ago. You’d have a student that had a target that looked like a shotgun blast. The instructors would explain to him that hitting the target all over was solid to hit as many bleeders as possible. They’d finish it off with “I’d ride with you”

And the boy lands at Pendleton about 1400 today fresh from Camp Butler. Supposed to get to Nashville around midnight on Friday for Thanksgiving leave.

I'm glad he's home for Thanksgiving and going to spend time with the Family!
At least he's at Butler and not Schawb.
That place just sucks.
I know a whole mess has changed on "The Rock" since the early 90's. There uses to be a great Mongolian BBQ joint around Kadena / Butler area "Genghis Khan", but that was a looonnnggg time ago.

I get the concepts, but DAMN... That's taking it a little too far. The target shouldn't look like someone hit it with 00 from 50 Yds.

The days of me putting everything in a "Fist sized" hole at High Center Mass / a nice tight group in the "Eyes-Nose" Triangle are behind me, unless I come across a ton of free ammo and extra time. But I can't accept a "Summer Target" (Some of the holes are here, some are there, some aren't even on the paper).

It's not bullseye shooting, but damn, they still gotta hit important stuff quickly and multiple times for it to be effective.


The 13% hit rate-
Man, there's a lot, and I mean A LOT of things going on there that are way out of an Instructors control.
Actual Policy, "perceived policy" (Because some of us in LE have to be the "kinder, gentler Police, with the Hug-a-Thug mentality)
Time
Budget
***WANT*** (From Command and the Individual)

Hell, we can deal with "Ability", that's the Instructors job, it's the stuff we can't control that bothers me.

So I am only running a “dot” on a bedside pistol and I check the dot every so often. As part of that I open the safe quickly and SAFELY IN A SAFE DIRECTION bring the gun to bear as if I was getting it out of the safe in an emergency.

I paid some attention this last time or so and I would say that I am probably faster coming to target then with irons, especially in low light. I wouldn’t say it’s some YUGE!!!! difference but I have noticed it since this thread started. Either comes up and are on target instinctually (in general terms for me) with the big difference being confirming front sight (flash picture) vs seeing that big ass green reticle superimposed over the target. So it seems, at least for me, the slight speed advantage goes to the dot because I don’t have to mentally confirm that front sight. Again not talking a massive difference but I have started to take notice of it.

Just an uneducated opinion of somebody who has been “tinkering” with pistol dots for a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
So I am only running a “dot” on a bedside pistol and I check the dot every so often. As part of that I open the safe quickly and SAFELY IN A SAFE DIRECTION bring the gun to bear as if I was getting it out of the safe in an emergency.

I paid some attention this last time or so and I would say that I am probably faster coming to target then with irons, especially in low light. I wouldn’t say it’s some YUGE!!!! difference but I have noticed it since this thread started. Either comes up and are on target instinctually (in general terms for me) with the big difference being confirming front sight (flash picture) vs seeing that big ass green reticle superimposed over the target. So it seems, at least for me, the slight speed advantage goes to the dot because I don’t have to mentally confirm that front sight. Again not talking a massive difference but I have started to take notice of it.

Just an uneducated opinion of somebody who has been “tinkering” with pistol dots for a bit.

Be careful with red dot and low light. I did allot of low light shooting at my indoor range with various lights turned down or off. The RDS was awesome until I activated my 2 billion lumen WML. There was some "wash out" with the WML activated. Decided to set my dot a little higher and it was fine. I haven't experimented with an RDS that has auto adjustment.

quote:

Originally posted by 10round:
There was some "wash out" with the WML activated.

Thank you for raising that issue. It makes perfect sense as something to consider.

I’ve never noticed any problem when using red dot sights on rifles and when the projected light isn’t sear-the-retinas bright, but I can see how it could be a problem in some situations. It’s perhaps another reason to be judicious when choosing a WML. I’ve often thought that the tendency to pick the most powerful light available may not always be best.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by 10round:
There was some "wash out" with the WML activated.

Thank you for raising that issue. It makes perfect sense as something to consider.

I’ve never noticed any problem when using red dot sights on rifles and when the projected light isn’t sear-the-retinas bright, but I can see how it could be a problem in some situations. It’s perhaps another reason to be judicious when choosing a WML. I’ve often thought that the tendency to pick the most powerful light available may not always be best.

The two most challenging lighting conditions are:

1) Low sun angle behind the target. Tends to create "ghost dots."

2) Low light plus weapon mounted light.

I teach my students to index their dot brightness for carry based on an activated weapon or handheld light against a neutral or light colored wall. This will almost always be acceptable for daylight and will not wash out against the user's own light.

Ideally, I want to know how many clicks down from max brightness this setting is so I can dial to max and back down if unsure.

quote:

Low sun angle behind the target. Tends to create "ghost dots."

Agreed, this is a bad deal. I've experienced this, on the range and it sucks. You send rounds and then realize that they're impacting two feet to the right of your intended point of aim because you were using the "wrong dot." That would be a huge issue in a real-life situation, and definitely something to be aware of with the optic if you're working in those types of conditions.

As to dot brightness in the dark, I keep my dot brightness set up for daylight conditions, as I've found that using target focus I can still make hits with an overpowering "blown-out" dot whereas it's much harder if the dot is too dim to see. Also, even if the dot is too bright in pitch black, when you illuminate the target with either a WML or handheld it tends to balance the dot brightness out a bit anyway. My optics don't auto-adjust, but I could see how that could create a problem for those that do when you go from pitch black to high-lumen illumination with a flick of a switch and the optic doesn't have time (or sensors in the right place) to adjust.