Reason I ask because it is slower for me.
Could be I just need to practice more.
Deciding on whether it is advisable for a carry gun but not going to unless I can become more proficient.

I would expect an RDS faster to acquire than fixed sights. You probably just need to give it time to become accustomed to the change.

Biggest issue I had, and upon doing research seems a common problem is finding the dot when presenting the firearm to target.

It tends to find the flaws you have in your presentation technique, and requires a lot of practice, dry fire or dry alignment at home presenting the gun and how you need to bring it up, to what angle to your sight, and getting that into muscle memory.

Sights like the Sig Zero and Holosun 507C have a circle around the dot, this has helped me find the dot and learn where to put the pistol in position as I can see the edge of the outer ring/circle and then move the gun into position to see the dot.

Basically it's a re-education of how you will need to present the firearm to acquire the sights, once you do, it's quick.

It is for me and probably most of us. Check out the competitive shooters.

It’s all muscle memory/eye sight coordination. Obviously, muscle memory is consistent (you are still aligning the gun to target) but your eye site coordination does change.

If your target acquisition on fixed sights was heavily dependent on eyesight, then yes, you likely will have a delay moving the gun to see the dot. If your target acquisition was primarily muscle memory, then you will actually improve speed due to the confidence obtained in using a red dot.

As ensigmatic eluded to, practice… practice… and practice som more. When I switched, I spent hours drawing to a spot on my living room wall. Result was improved speed in target acquisition and dramatic accuracy improvement at the range.

My 2-cents… worth about half that.

The answer is "it depends."

If you've spent twenty years using irons and try to transition to RDS you will be slower at first. As you become acclimated you become much faster.

After five years of near constant RDS use, several classes, and lots of practice, according to the shot timer I am much faster with the RDS past 10 yards and much quicker with irons inside of seven yards.

The key is to have both on your gun and to use whichever (dot or irons) you see first. Don't "fish" for the dot. If you see the dot, use it. If you only see irons, use them.

The RDS shows you your weak spots.

An inconsistent grip and presentation becomes readily apparent because that's where you have trouble finding the dot. If your grip and presentation is the same every time it will always be right there.

The dot is a fine aiming point. Irons are coarse. People when they first start using the dot complain about its movement. The reality is that your gun has always moved around a lot you just couldn't see it before. It will make you develop a more consistent trigger pull.

The thing that made me a RDS believer (and that it was "worth it" was shooting quickly at distance. Suddenly shooting at 25, 50, or 100 yards was super easy whether standing still or moving.

Shooting at 100 yards with irons, even good ones with an accurate pistol, took effort. I can shoot 50 rounds from my P320 with a RDS at a steel silhouette at 100 yards and have 50 hits quickly and easily. It comes down to the fine aiming point vs coarse. It takes very little effort. For a duty gun it just makes sense.

I'm not sticking a RDS on my P365 because that's not why I have that gun. I'm likely to use it inside of 25 yards and the point is to have something small and light to carry. So it stays with irons.

It's slower for me. I could really drill down and practice harder with it, or just be happy that I'm fairly dangerous with iron sights in a competitive environment.

If your presentation mechanics are on point and your are target focused it should be about the same at close range if not a bit faster. At extended range it’s much better.

Both eyes open, target focus, solid presentation fundamentals and you will come up to speed.

Now all that said do I think dots are a huge paradigm shift on pistols like rifles? No. They do offer practical benefits to be sure.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Biggest issue I had, and upon doing research seems a common problem is finding the dot when presenting the firearm to target.

It tends to find the flaws you have in your presentation technique, and requires a lot of practice, dry fire or dry alignment at home presenting the gun and how you need to bring it up, to what angle to your sight, and getting that into muscle memory.

Sights like the Sig Zero and Holosun 507C have a circle around the dot, this has helped me find the dot and learn where to put the pistol in position as I can see the edge of the outer ring/circle and then move the gun into position to see the dot.

Basically it's a re-education of how you will need to present the firearm to acquire the sights, once you do, it's quick.

Basically this. You'll be way slower at first. I still am. But I've shot with some guys that can really run a pistol / red dot. They are ridiculously fast and accurate with it.

quote:

But I've shot with some guys that can really run a pistol / red dot. They are ridiculously fast and accurate with it.

Yeah but my guess is they are just ridiculous no matter the gun or tech. . I’ve seen some folks shoot who are just plain crazy skilled with lots of talent on top of it. Always amazes me to see folks like this shoot ……… well until I realize what a dumpster fire I am………but hey I’m safe and that’s something dammit .

It’s been slower for us old timers that have used irons for years. The younger non shooters at work took to it quicker. What I have been doing with us older folks is having a dedicated blue gun with a red dot for them to practice with since the chief mandated red dots without making it optional for those that want it.

I’m constantly telling them focus on the target and when you bring the gun up the red dot should just appear on target. It seems to help.

Maybe some co-witness sights either 1/3 or fully might be beneficial, huh?

Not in my experience. They can help rescue you if you lose the dot and can't solve the issue on your own, but your eye can't solve two focus problems at the same time. Me personally I'm still a tiny bit faster at very short ranges with irons, but I will trade that every time for the accuracy improvement I get at every distance past that.
Bottom line I don't want to shoot any gun that doesn't have a red dot as I am so much better with it overall. And competition numbers prove its better overall IMO.

I'd opine that red dots are slightly slower than super-experienced iron sights to get first shot on target. But after that, transitions and additional hits, particularly at any distance, are faster with red dot.

If you're super experienced with red dot it can be almost as fast as super-experienced with irons, but IMO irons are a tad faster in general. But other than that red dots have an obvious advantage. Similar to on a rifle... very few people would argue that using primary irons on a combat rifle is the superior choice today.

quote:

I'd opine that red dots are slightly slower than super-experienced iron sights to get first shot on target. But after that, transitions and additional hits, particularly at any distance, are faster with red dot.

I agree with this. At least initially, until you have a practiced presentation your first shot might be slower but I'd be willing to bet if you put yourself on a timer you'd find that aimed follow-up shots or transitions between targets are quicker, especially if you're using the dot properly and not trying to center it in the window or worse, visually align it with your irons.

The good news is, the dot is also a great training tool as it will show you if your presentation is correct or not, and if you put in the dry draw and presentation reps you can fix that without even having to fire a shot (what's the fun in that, right?!).

The dot does have its problems, but once you learn to leverage it speed isn't one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:
Biggest issue I had, and upon doing research seems a common problem is finding the dot when presenting the firearm to target.

It tends to find the flaws you have in your presentation technique, and requires a lot of practice, dry fire or dry alignment at home presenting the gun and how you need to bring it up, to what angle to your sight, and getting that into muscle memory.

Basically it's a re-education of how you will need to present the firearm to acquire the sights, once you do, it's quick

"Finding the dot" is what is slowing you down.

When shooting with a RDS, you focus on the target and the dot appears to cue your trigger press. The flaw usually revealed by the RDS is that you've been correcting your presentation on the way out to extension so that they are "on" when you reach full extension. With a RDS, your presentation needs to always present the dot "on target."

You can try to correct this yourself, but as has been long advocated when shooting iron sights, you'll save time and money by being evaluated and learning through professional training.

quote:

Sights like the Sig Zero and Holosun 507C have a circle around the dot, this has helped me find the dot and learn where to put the pistol in position as I can see the edge of the outer ring/circle and then move the gun into position to see the dot.

When shooting the Holosun in competition, on quick and dirty stages, you can actually turn off the dot and just use the ring

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

quote:

I'd opine that red dots are slightly slower than super-experienced iron sights to get first shot on target. But after that, transitions and additional hits, particularly at any distance, are faster with red dot.

I agree with this. At least initially, until you have a practiced presentation your first shot might be slower but I'd be willing to bet if you put yourself on a timer you'd find that aimed follow-up shots or transitions between targets are quicker, especially if you're using the dot properly and not trying to center it in the window or worse, visually align it with your irons.

The reason many folks new to the RDS have issues finding the dot is because that want to look "through" the window. When they do that they want to look through the center of the window...so they raise their slide/barrel.

The angle that the slide/barrel needs to be held at (slightly pointing down) doesn't change when using a RDS

I also am slower picking up red dot sights vs. iron sights.
I probably need to practice more.

My first experience with them was on my Sig P320 compact .... which also allows you to still use the iron sights... what I learned was to practice aquiring the target with the iron sights and then spend that extra nano second refining the sight picture with the dot. If you do this a hundred times or so then it becomes natural with that pistol....

As a guy who has been shooting irons for about 40 years now, and have been blessed thus far with my sight not degrading ( typical presbyopia) converting to a dot would be difficult.
It is all about presentation and practice.
I agree young people who haven’t shot irons much take to it much better than us old timers.
I come from a shooting background focused on precision shooting for a good part of my life, and I honestly do NOT think dots improve accuracy at extended ranges.. however, they do allow those hits to happen faster, put a target at say 50+ yards, and I would put my old iron sights up against anyone with a red dot as far as actually getting accurate hits. But again the red dot guy is going to beat me if the goal is to get those hits faster.