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Oriental Redneck |
https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...3106699/m/1380038144 Q | |||
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The guy behind the guy |
It wasn't until I shot steel targets with a couple different calibers that I decided the whole "9mm with new technology is just as good" argument was BS. When punching paper I never realized it, but when shooting steel, you can both see and hear how your rounds hit the target differently. Some hit harder, no doubt. Now, a .45 may hit harder, but will it penetrate enough? I dunno. My point is simply that the calibers are indeed different and do different things when they hit the target. Seems like an obvious statement, I just mean that it really got driven home for me when I shot steel for the first time. So saying one is just as good as another can't possibly be true. They physically hit different, there is no debate, so somehow they will be different in a person. The problem is there are sooooooo many factors that play into how a bullet incapacitates a target that it will make your head spin. For example, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we really got down into the nitty gritty of this science that we'd find one caliber is better for shooting fat folks with no muscle mass and another is better for shooting ripped folks with low body mass. Perhaps a different caliber for fat folks with muscle mass? One is better for COM hits, one is better for extremely hits....I have no data on any of this, I'm saying it wouldn't surprise me. Energy transferred does indeed matter, ask a rifle round. But is there a certain level that we must attain for it matter more than a negligible amount? I dunno. Penetration matters, but how much is enough and how much is too much...again, what's my target and where do I hit them? I just threw my hands up years ago and stopped caring. I carry 9mm and .380 and say F it, should be good enough. I prefer capacity over a particular caliber. I try to find a really good quality bullet. If I ever have to pull the trigger, I'm going to hope it gets the job done...and keep pulling the trigger. We know what rifle rounds are capable of from hunting. We don't have the same quantity of data and personal experience shooting humans with handgun calibers, so I stopped thinking this question would ever get answered years ago. I feel like many folks in the gun world either feel the same way as I do and say "good enough" and others say "just as good as..." Those people must be making up a larger and larger percentage each year and thus less and less are buying .357 and .40. | |||
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Member |
The advantage that 9mm provides is capacity / round count. IMHO, both the 40SW & 357 Sig are ballistically superior when it comes to incapacitation. The prevailing argument against them is that some folks can’t shoot them effectively. My take is that the majority of those folks aren’t shooters and don’t practice to master the caliber... ______________________________________________ Life is short. It’s shorter with the wrong gun… | |||
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| Member |
147gr HST has been working just fine for a lot of agencies/departments for awhile including ours. If you "underperform", it's not the ammunition's fault. Shoot better and/or take a long gun. | |||
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| Banned |
Thanks | |||
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| Leatherneck |
More likely we will see a police shooting that turns out badly due to shitty tactics, training, preparation or plain bad luck and the 9mm will simply be a convenient scapegoat. Even the mighty .357 Mag ain't gonna do much good if you set it on the seat and lose it in a crash before the fight even begins. “Everybody wants a Sig in the sheets but a Glock on the streets.” -bionic218 04-02-2014 | |||
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| 7.62mm Crusader |
I like the way you think. I had a ST model, sold to a Member here. I had some fun shooting it. As I check on them often, alloy frame models ca be had and they'd be fine as a defense gun. The spare parts should be easy to obtain for quite some time. Another nice attribute I've noticed of the .357 Sig models with alloy frames is that many are non railed frame. Makes the little flame thrower a bit flatter on the hip. | |||
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| Member |
Supply and demand. Sig will continue to produce what's selling. DPR | |||
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| 7.62mm Crusader |
Not entirely true. There was a thread a few years back, showing a drugged up bad guy, deader than hell, X rayed, laying on a dead guy table. He was carrying 4 or 5 fully expanded 40 caliber slugs and, he didnt stop being a bad guy until a AR rifle was employed. Shot to the noggin IIRC. Under some conditions, a bad guy might take any number of hits, no matter the caliber and keep coming. | |||
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| Imagination and focus become reality |
If I am not mistaken, the FBI has really been pleased with the Speer Gold Dot G2 round in 9mm. | |||
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| Member |
This is my take on it too. My son and I went out to Gunsite for a week of training. The head trainer for our class was a police man who did training at a lot of departments and trained swat members as well. He was all about 9mm. If you had a .45 you were just trying to be macho. He said .40s were just a waste. Of course if you shot anything but a Glock you were just plain twisted. NRA Life Endowment member Tri-State Gun collectors Life Member | |||
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| Member |
Heh, .45s are out and Glocks rule? Gunsite has come a long way from Cooper's days.  “People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik Be harder to kill: https://preparefit.ck.page | |||
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| Frequent Denizen of the Twilight Zone  |
Decided on a P320 Carry in .357sig to replace my P229. Polymer gun, kydex holster, not sure what's come over me. | |||
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| Member |
I guess it's just me but I think cost plays the most significant factor in why 9mm is so popular. Capacity is nice but not every state has that ability. Everyone has to deal with .357sig and .40 being 50%+ more expensive than 9mm. Same reason why a lot of the AR platform calibers beyond 5.56 aren't going to surpass it. Cost/availability of ammo. I say this as someone who owns a .357/.40 p229 and a p220. We shoot my wife's 9mm more simply because it's so much cheaper. | |||
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| Member |
My agency had an incident where an intoxicated (relatively low BAC) and enraged subject, heavily armed, took several 357 Sigs to the upper torso and a 5.56 to the stomach. He continued to fight and was finally stopped with two rifle rounds to the head. DPR | |||
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| Member |
With modern 9mm ammunition, this caliber is probably adequate for almost all civilian situations. Police and military have different needs. In addition, while the stories of someone being shot multiple times with a 9 mm and it being an ineffective are usually remembered, the many more stories of someone shot with a 9mm and it being very effective are easily forgotten. The advantage of 9mm being the standard is that cost comes down and effectiveness will go up with better technology. The more companies are making from one caliber, the more they will spend on research to make that caliber more effective. At one time in a lot of the world the standard police around was 7.65mm and in the US detectives carried some version of 32 caliber revolvers. People of course were less violent towards the police and I think smaller in statue. I am not saying we should go back to these lower calibers but many times we can do more with less. One thing I hear about constantly from people who grew up with the 1911 as the Army standard SideArm, is that the 45 ACP is a superior round everything else. If I am not mistaken, I believe the Army adopted this round after the ineffectiveness of the 38 Colt DA revolver in the Philippines. It was not 38 special. Many people still swear that 7 or 8 rounds of a 1911 and 45 ACP is superior to everything else even though there is a lot of negative views about the lack of penetration of this round. 38 Colt DA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_M1892 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Long_Colt http://www.morolandhistory.com...merican_sidearms.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Democracy is 2 Wolves & a Lamb debating the lunch menu. Liberty is a well armed Lamb! | |||
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| Frequent Denizen of the Twilight Zone |
I'm not an expert, or particularly knowledgeable regarding real life applications. Here is my 2 cents. 1. Anecdotes are not evidence. 2. Confirmation bias is a fact. 3. Reality is messier than theory. 4. Even shot placement is not a slam dunk. It seems all you can really go on is ballistics information and various tests regarding penetration and so on. It seems almost any round can either be terminal, or almost ineffective in a given situation, with particular ammunition and a particular "subject". Regarding the story about the upper torso shots, and the dead guy on the dead guy table, it would be interesting to know more detail about damage. There are even stories of people being shot in the head and not stopping or dying. It seems to be all about significant damage to a critical system. It's well established that people often don't feel pain or know they are injured if they are under stress and focused. Add drugs and that simply increases. So you have removed the "psychological" factor of "oh shit, I've been shot" and the pain factor. However, if someone's heart stops or a major artery is sliced open, psychology and pain are secondary. They will stop and it won't take long. If the brain is scrambled, they will stop. So, as everyone knows, placement, penetration and damage are the deciding factors, IMO. You can try to maximize those with testing and innovation and then watch what happens in the real situations where the "mess of reality" takes over. In short, someone can die from a .22 or live with a 10mm. | |||
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| Member |
The head itself isn't special, it's the brain and spine. I've had plenty of folks who got shot through the mouth, jaw, or hit in the area where penetration would have gotten into the brain but it skipped off the skull or rode the skull around just under the skin. Ball ammo in particular is susceptible to riding the skull when it hits at an angle. It can still ring their bell, like a good punch, but they'll get back in the fight. | |||
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Member |
That doesnt surprise me. My former boss was a captain in the local PD in the late 70s. There was a call of a man with a rifle who took another officer hostage. After chasing them around town the suspect exited the vehicle with his m14 and my former boss got in a shootout with him at around 20y with his s&w model 19 .357 mag. It had some hot hand loads in it that would not extract. His guardian angel was on duty that evening as he did not receive any 7.62 rounds in him, but the suspect ended up taking the last 357 semi wadcutter out of the 19 through his left ventricle. at this point the suspect decided to retreat. my former boss grabbed the 12 gauge out of the car (since the cases were stuck in the cylinder of the revolver) and gave chase. the suspect made it about 200y with his m14 in hand before collapsing due to lack of blood pressure. By the time medics arrived he was DRT. Luckily the suspect was the only one injured. | |||
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For real? |
This happened years ago in my city. Shopowner shot the robber with a .40 FMJ, it glanced off his skull. Went in above left temple and out behind the ear. Robber was still able to exit, cross a five lane street, run through a drug store parking lot, cross another five lane street and when I showed up he tried crawling under a van. I tried to take a video with my old Motorola RAZR but the helicopter people kicked me out. Dude survived, did three years, got out and started robbing stores again. Not that bright anymore, last time we followed his footprints in the snow to his mom's house. Not minority enough! | |||
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