quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
From a practical shooting standpoint, the P320 wins all day long...

This is my experience as well. The P320 to me, just seems to be slightly better than the Glock in nearly every category.

Come over to the side where you don't have to have a callus on your trigger finger to shoot well - you might find that one of the grip frames suits you better.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:
So it's the grip angle that causes me to shoot Glocks to the left. Hmmmmm. I may have to look at a 320 after all.

Oh, yeah. It's all in how you grip the pistol. Some instructors teach "MORE FINGER" as the cure, but what they are actually doing by getting the shooter to put "MORE FINGER" in is fundamentally changing how the shooter grips the pistol by inserting more finger. That is the cure, not the amount of finger you put in.

The grip has to be a straight front to back one, with no loading of the sides. Cures it each and every time.

This is golden.

So the "more trigger finger" deal is really just resulting in benefit because it's changing the hand placement on the side of the frame due to a counter-clockwise grip shift on the horizontal access?

Lemme know if this is correct, jljones, as I've been really struggling to understand both conceptually and practically the "Glock side loading" issue, as I see it in practice and want to know how to cure it.

People don't call 'em "Blocks" for nothin'. That's how a Glock feels in my hand: Like gripping a block. That being said: There's something to be said for a firearm you can abuse the livin' crap out of and it just plain keeps working. I think of Glocks as the "AK-47 of the handgun world." (I don't like AKs, either.)

As for the P320: I have mixed feelings. I used to love my P320 FS .45 ACP. I just plain shot that thing well right out of the box. The only handgun I shoot better is my G34 - and that's a tuned race gun.

Then the drop safety thing happened. I have yet to send mine in. I have a vague distrust in its safety until I do, but I fear Sig will screw it up, so I keep procrastinating.

That has kind of soured me on that pistol and on Sig , so I cannot sell you on any Sig, much less a P320.

quote:

Originally posted by Monk:

I'd stick with the pistol whose manufacturer did not make the following argument:

"Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III. In this regard, Sig Sauer argues that reliability was only one of a number of elements to be considered in the live-fire assessment, and notes that reliability was not identified as having any more importance than the other elements."

How SIG can ever be taken seriously as a firearms company again is beyond me.

That’s a really funny and good point!

I have both a compact and FS 320. They both work fine, accurate, feel good in the hand, etc. after a couple of months though, I decided I’m happy sticking with Glock. So now the 320’s just sit in the safe collecting dust.


Thing is, it’s almost all personal preference and that’s the important thing to remember.

...

If you choosing between a Glock and a P320, you probably need to be looking at the M&P 2.0 also. You didn't say which Glock you're comparing the P320 to, but if it's the 19 The M&P 2.0 Compact is closer to the size of the 19, and smaller than, the P320.

I shot one a week or so ago, and really liked it.

quote:

Originally posted by Monk:
I'd stick with the pistol whose manufacturer did not make the following argument:

"Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III. In this regard, Sig Sauer argues that reliability was only one of a number of elements to be considered in the live-fire assessment, and notes that reliability was not identified as having any more importance than the other elements."

How SIG can ever be taken seriously as a firearms company again is beyond me.

Particularly ironic considering:

I don't care much for Glock (even though I own 2). I can shoot proficiently with them but it's a chore.
I tried the P320 and while I feel it's a fine pistol it just never worked out for me (personal preference) and I have since went to the M&P 2.0 platform for my carry pistols.

I recently picked up a 320 X5 and couldn't be happier, I got a great deal on it and I can shoot it extremely well not to mention that feels great in my hand. I still keep my Glock's but I really like the 320 platform also, I trust both to fulfill the role of self defense tool.

quote:

Originally posted by Gary1911A1:
I'm a 1911 type guy too and find the Glock grip angle to feel odd.

Do your 1911s have a flat mainspring housing or an arched? That may be the reason...
All my 1911s have a flat housing and it takes about a week or so for me to change from one to the other for a match but that is mostly the different feel of the triggers than anything.

It has been argued before on this forum that the "grip angle" is the same (front strap to bore axis) but the subjective feel of the glock is "different" due to the hump on the backstrap.
All I know is if I want to shoot a glock fast with accuracy, I only shoot glocks unless I need to switch to another platform for a match. (1911)

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
<sniP>
To perform, the Glock takes a lot of work, particularly on having the right grip. If you don't, your shots go left (right handed shooter), if you have too loose a grip the gun can stop working.

This is something I've never been able to achieve.
I've fired a G27 with only a thumb on the back and index finger on the trigger for a total of 2 contact points on the gun. It wouldn't jam.
Tried to get my 19, 17 and 34 to choke with the same results, boring running w/o a bobble. Seems I'm just too strong in old age.

You've seen LOT more shooters than I ever will so large grain of salt is indicated for my anecdotal experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Monk:

I'd stick with the pistol whose manufacturer did not make the following argument:

"Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III. In this regard, Sig Sauer argues that reliability was only one of a number of elements to be considered in the live-fire assessment, and notes that reliability was not identified as having any more importance than the other elements."

How SIG can ever be taken seriously as a firearms company again is beyond me.

Could you reference where that quote came from?

quote:

Originally posted by Sparkyk:

quote:

Originally posted by Monk:

I'd stick with the pistol whose manufacturer did not make the following argument:

"Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III. In this regard, Sig Sauer argues that reliability was only one of a number of elements to be considered in the live-fire assessment, and notes that reliability was not identified as having any more importance than the other elements."

How SIG can ever be taken seriously as a firearms company again is beyond me.

Could you reference where that quote came from?

It came from u.s. GAO-B-402339.3 Sig Sauer Inc. July 23,2010. It is an excerpt of a very long protest of the way the atf ran their rfp for 2 new agency weapons. The statement was based on the following:

The RFP provided that the live-fire assessment would consider accuracy, reliability, comfort, ergonomics, controllability, maintenance, and suitability and provided for an overall assessment of the handgun as a "potential new service handgun for ATF." RFP at 63.

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
<sniP>
To perform, the Glock takes a lot of work, particularly on having the right grip. If you don't, your shots go left (right handed shooter), if you have too loose a grip the gun can stop working.

This is something I've never been able to achieve.
I've fired a G27 with only a thumb on the back and index finger on the trigger for a total of 2 contact points on the gun. It wouldn't jam.
Tried to get my 19, 17 and 34 to choke with the same results, boring running w/o a bobble. Seems I'm just too strong in old age.

You've seen LOT more shooters than I ever will so large grain of salt is indicated for my anecdotal experience.

I'm with you. I've seen Jones say that before, and I've learned to just let it go. I've tried to get mine to hang up and I can't.

Nor do I put a lot of finger on the trigger...and I don't shoot them left.

Obviously he's seen people have issues, but I just can't make them happen at all.

The reason to get a 320 over a Glock: If you already have Glocks, why not shoot something new for variety?

The 320 can be made to fit your hand better than Glock can IMO.

Personally, I think the Glock is the far better gun, but those are a couple reasons I could argue for the 320.

quote:

Originally posted by esdunbar:
I've seen Jones say that before, and I've learned to just let it go. I've tried to get mine to hang up and I can't.

I guess at some point, you just have to weigh the data and choose what you wish to believe based upon your data.

I hate to show my age, but in the last 20 years of teaching, I've got a pretty good handle on what works, what doesn't and the problems that exist out there. In the last five years, I've been watching between 250k-300k per year go down range. A little over 100k of that goes down range in a single week. So, I think I have a pretty good handle on what works or what doesn't. Single weeks of 10-15k per week haven't been uncommon through nothing but Glocks. With some weeks as high as 25-30k. I logged between 14k-15k total last year through a single Gene G17. In this time, I have found that people that lean on Glock's "reputation" are fooling themselves. They are no more or less reliable, plus being harder to shoot at a really high level. Some stuff that I have seen? Three G22s that have detonated on the range. Cracked frames in the E Series guns. Guns with massive FTF problems, particularly in the fourth gen. Guns that stopped working when you attach a light to them. And the host of usual malfunctions that you see with any handgun.

What guns have went down hard in that 100k plus week? An HK MK23, and two P320s that blew up. An additional P320 blew up in the very next class. Some in P320 circles said that it just couldn't happen because of the gun being out of battery, they've been tested thoroughly, blah, blah, and it had to be the ammo. The guns were firing out of battery and I'd bet my next paycheck on it. I steered way clear of the P320, and didn't recommend it during that time until the issue that allowed the gun to fire out of battery was corrected. What guns during this week seem to be most susceptible to malfunctions? Glocks. Particularly on strong hand/weak hand day. Particularly if they are underlubed in this idea that they should be lubed with a "drop here and there" or a "Q Tip of oil". It got so bad after the first year, that now each year I have to do a brief on weapons maintenance to try to head off the problems. After Glocks, come any other polymer pistols about evenly. Guns I have seen zero problems out of? Beretta 92s, and SIG P226/P229s.

Based upon that, I draw my opinions. They all can and do fail at some point. Glocks do provide more of a challenge to shoot really well. Can it be overcame? Yep. But, I am in the point in my life to where I take the attitude of "why try". Do I recommend Glocks. Sure, if someone has it in their heart, have at it. I just educate them on what I have witnessed. Would I issue Glocks at work? Hell no. But, if it were up to me, (and it isn't) we'd be carrying SIG P226s in 9mm.

Sample sizes vary. I'll stand by mine just about any day. I'll also add that in just about every class, I'll take the cops aside and give them my little Glock spiel, and show them how to over come the gun shooting left or right. You'll watch them, and they'll shake their heads as that light bulb is coming on. And it is always with a borrowed pistol that I have never shot before.

Do I hate a Glock? Nope. It's just a choice in a great market that we are in right now. Nothing better, nothing worse.

I also find myself to be lucky to be in the position that I am in, and wouldn't trade it for anything.

quote:

I have found that people that lean on Glock's "reputation" are fooling themselves. They are no more or less reliable

I agree completely. What I don’t agree with is that they are noticeably more susecptable to limp wristing than other polymer guns...M&P’s aside.

If I grip a polymer gun resiculously loose, I can get it to malfunction, but I’m talking about a grip that is not a reasonable shooting grip.

The only polymer gun that I can’t get to limp wrist is an M&P for some reason. Admitadly, I have precious few rounds through a 320, so I can’t speak to that. Otherwise, I’ve pretty much owned it and shot it.

I simply don’t think Glock is worth singling out when we discuss limpwristing, that’s all I’m saying. I will also note that from my experience, the G17 is more susceptible to limp worsting than the g19, but again, my dog can grip a gun better than the grips I’m using to induce a limp wrist failure. It’s not an “issue” worth calling out when we say “Glock” imo, but I have noticed you do.

And I certainly don’t think you have it out for Glocks. I’ve got no reason to think you’re doing anything but calling them like you see them. It just doesn’t match what I’ve found.

I have been a part of two of those those 100k round weeks.
One with my G19C, which needed a new recoil spring, about halfway through (dunno how many total rounds it already had on it before, but it was a lot) and a good cleaning and lubing occasionally because the compensated barrel gets gunky after a few thousand rounds.
The other was with a P320, which blew up and launched the extractor into low orbit. It may have been ammunition related because I next blew up Jones' P320, about an hour later.

I haven't felt really comfortable with non-recalled, er, non-"voluntary-upgraded" P320's, since then.
This week, I decided to suck it up and send it in. After the factory "upgrade", it's going to Gray Guns for the Competition Action Package so I don't have to chance it coming back from Sig with a crappy post-upgrade trigger. The PELT trigger it has now is pretty sweet and I am happy with how it shoots.

Bruce

The P320 reminds me of my P228. I like my G19 G3 but the P228 has always felt better. But, if you are talking grip angle and the like, the PPQ M2 and the VP9, to me, are the most ergonomic of the Wonder 9 polymer frame pistols. I’d rent the HK, SIG, Walther, and the S&W M&P 2.0 and then decide which you like/shoot better.

quote:

Originally posted by Sparkyk:

quote:

Originally posted by Monk:

I'd stick with the pistol whose manufacturer did not make the following argument:

"Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III. In this regard, Sig Sauer argues that reliability was only one of a number of elements to be considered in the live-fire assessment, and notes that reliability was not identified as having any more importance than the other elements."

How SIG can ever be taken seriously as a firearms company again is beyond me.

Could you reference where that quote came from?

https://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm

Ignoring the actual performance of SIG pistols during the trials, the response of the company was simply unacceptable.

I have the P320 X Carry, and love it, it has been part of my EDC Rotation for a time now, it feels great in my hand, points great, is accurate and so far totally reliable, the nights and flat trigger are awesome, I'm not a fan of the holes in the dust cover, but haven't had any problems either, so yea, I'm a fan...