I have a question for you all to ponder. Trijicon appears to be the GOLD standard for military/LEO type optics (ACOG, etc.) and anymore I see a lot of setups on AR-15's with no irons and I was curious as to do we still need iron sights on pistols that are equipped with say a Trijicon RMR. I'm getting to the point in my life that iron sights are nearly worthless due to varying eye issues. I wear glasses, but can't see the sights well with them on so I never wear them while shooting and if I do I look over top of them and have to cock my head to one side. A RDS sight just feels like the way to go which begs the question...why waste the time with irons cluttering up the sight picture? Are electronic dot sights by the higher end manufacturers (Trijicon, Aimpoint, etc.) reliable to bet your life on without backup irons on a pistol?

An RMR does not have a fully enclosed housing containing the emitter like an Aimpoint T1 for example.
If a bit of debris gets in front of the emitter window, your emitter may be blocked and there's the chance of not having a dot projected.

As long as the window is clear, at least I can still see my irons.

Maybe in theory there is blocking of the emitter on an RMR but I've never seen it in tens of thousands of rounds of shooting in some pretty awful competition conditions. Other issues but not that one. But if it bugs you get an ACRO. If in the end you can't see irons does it really matter? There are really two parts to the question. Are they reliable, to that I would say yes provided that you deal with certain issues like the batteries proactively and in cleaning (if you carry an RMR I can tell you your biggest daily challenge will be lint) and a few other operational issues. But if you can even see a little bit with irons then yes it helps in a small percentage of situations. If all you did was shoot in nice daylight or the dark the irons really don't do much for you. But in some combinations of light and dot intensity it really, really helps to have tritium irons for help. In these sights you will have the dot set to something be it day or night intensity. If you have it at a night time setting and you have to act while in very bright light (like you went into a dark room and the lights were turned on suddenly but the target is still in the dark) you can lose the dot and having irons is a really good backup. I can make pretty good hits with just using centering of the window on the RMR at very close ranges, but irons really improves the situation. You get the idea. I like backups and can't see any reason at this point to give them up (nor would I consider a rifle setup for serious use without irons), but if you can't use either it doesn't matter too much. I am so much faster and more accurate with an RMR.

quote:

Originally posted by jcsabolt2:
I'm getting to the point in my life that iron sights are nearly worthless due to varying eye issues.

If you can’t see them, then I believe you’ve answered your own question. It doesn’t matter how other people might use backup irons if they had to, but we should evaluate our own capabilities and likely needs. On the other hand if there is some slight chance they could be useful and they are not a detriment in some way, why not?

Another thing that I wonder more about these days is how many people train with shooting a handgun (or even a rifle) without using the sights. At close distances of about 5 yards or less, it’s possible to train even inexperienced shooters to get effective hits with a handgun without using the sights at all.* At longer distances accuracy drops off quickly, but that’s why we carry guns loaded with more than a few rounds and our scoring doesn’t stop after we’ve fired a couple of shots trying to hit the A Zone.

That’s not to say that unsighted fire is best or even desirable if there is any alternative, but it’s something shooters should be familiar with and prepared to resort to even without being concerned that our modern sights will fail us at a critical time.

* This is the time for someone to ask how many competition shooters use unsighted point shooting. If I point out that there’s a difference between close range self-defense situations and gun game competitions, then someone will sagely state, “A gunfight is a competition too.” But if you don’t see the differences in competitions with their carefully limited numbers of shots and well-defined scoring zones and defending oneself from an armed attacker, then just ignore all this; it’s not for you.

I have a friend whose Glocks are red dot only. He can frame a target in the unlit window well enough for the Internet Standard Defense ranges.

quote:

* This is the time for someone to ask how many competition shooters use unsighted point shooting.

Uh, most of us.
If you shoot a lot, you will learn how far you can point, how far you can index, how far you can use a sloppy sight picture, how far you need a sharp sight picture.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Watson:
Uh, most of us.

Well, not according to some posts here.

And I suspect that is an example of how often people view any question solely through the filters of their own experiences and interests. I see that frequently in questions here: What cartridge, what barrel length, what sight, etc. Someone who uses his own guns for only a single or possible two similar types of shooting will confidently (and adamantly) assert that selecting a gun that’s suitable for the purposes he’s familiar with is the only possible choice. Needs, desires, and possible uses that have no relevance to them personally are totally outside their thought processes.

One mans opinion but I found it to be good advice. Also with aging eyes green dots are supposedly easier for the eyes to detect and pick up on than red dots.

Rifle or pistol I want to have the option of iron backup sights.

I do actually shoot iron sights as well so they are not 100% vestigial.

I just feel better with the one is none and 2 is one mantra in my life and having a backup “dumb” sighting system that weighs next to nothing is a no brainer to me.

All that said I have neither the experience or training or professional use to tell anybody how to conduct their business. But for me I want irons.

quote:

Originally posted by lastmanstanding:
One mans opinion ....

Wow! Thanks for that.

Most of it was stuff I’ve learned slowly and intermittently over the years and tried to incorporate in my teaching to one degree or another. He made some specific points and tips, though, that I’d never thought of, so I will be definitely incorporating them in my training for an inexperienced shooter starting tomorrow.

I found this video a few years back. I incorporated the concentration of not moving the gun during the trigger pull and when you are not spending all you're concentration on focusing on the front sight gun control becomes much easier. Much of my dry fire practice is focus on not moving the gun particularly on that first DA pull. Of course balancing the coin on the front sight is another good way to gauge the movement on trigger pull. So I use the coin and don't look at the sights and focus on the mechanics of a smooth trigger pull. Looking at the sights can come later.