quote:

Originally posted by steve495:
Curious if someone before you was messing with the mag release and weakened the area since it is the EXACT spot mine is cracked. From what I understand, I'm not alone.

That's why I asked if he purchased the pistol new, or used. Some people miss the tiny little latch you press in order to get the magazine release free from the frame, end up prying on it, and this kind of damage can result.

I had a SIG P220 SASS Carry that did the exact same thing.
I bought it new and SIG Replaced the gun.
It was a story in itself. They first sent me a first generation Single Action 220. I told them that I wanted a DAK like I had, so they replaced it again with a DAK.

Im curious, why are so many people removing/replacing the magazine catch? I've never seen a reason to take it apart and therefore have not.

quote:

Originally posted by donklekins:
Im curious, why are so many people removing/replacing the magazine catch? I've never seen a reason to take it apart and therefore have not.

Years ago, I read a gun magazine article by a professional in the firearms industry, and he listed what he considered to be weaknesses in various gun designs. When he got to SIG (I think it was the P226 specifically, but could have extended to other P series- been years since I read the article), but he felt the Magazine Catch Release Spring was too weak, and he mentioned a source for a heavier spring. I thought it was an interesting observation because, while it certainly didn't happen often to me, over the years while carrying a P226, I have had a couple instances in which I pulled the gun from a holster to lay it down and found the magazine was still inside the gun but had been released from the locked position. I had chalked it up to either a holster-meets-every-day-activities or "one of those things" and never considered that early model springs may be weaker.

To this day, when carrying a classic P series concealed, I catch myself discreetly checking that the magazine is still locked in place, through my clothing.

I can't be certain, but I always thought later models of P226 had slightly stiffer Mag Catch Release Springs.

Many SIG models have easily reversible Mag Catch buttons so whether you are Lefty or a Righty, it may be preferable to swap it to the other side.

For all these reasons, an armorer or user may remove the Mag Catch.

Mostly, I agree though, that there is a little reason to remove one. Until recently, when I switched one on a friend's SIG (Lefty), I had only removed them a couple times on my own (no warranty) SIGs, just to see if I could do it without screwing the job up...I'm "1 - 2" so far.

Looks like that the was a void In the aluminum. There is black anodizing where the should be aluminum.
Am I seeing that correctly?

quote:

Originally posted by jsjac:
There is black anodizing where the should be aluminum.
Am I seeing that correctly?

Good question. Perhaps it's just the lighting, but you may be right.

That’s what I was thinking as well. To be fair, I have never taken out a P2xx magazine release.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

quote:

Originally posted by donklekins:
Im curious, why are so many people removing/replacing the magazine catch? I've never seen a reason to take it apart and therefore have not.

Years ago, I read a gun magazine article by a professional in the firearms industry, and he listed what he considered to be weaknesses in various gun designs. When he got to SIG (I think it was the P226 specifically, but could have extended to other P series- been years since I read the article), but he felt the Magazine Catch Release Spring was too weak, and he mentioned a source for a heavier spring. I thought it was an interesting observation because, while it certainly didn't happen often to me, over the years while carrying a P226, I have had a couple instances in which I pulled the gun from a holster to lay it down and found the magazine was still inside the gun but had been released from the locked position. I had chalked it up to either a holster-meets-every-day-activities or "one of those things" and never considered that early model springs may be weaker.

To this day, when carrying a classic P series concealed, I catch myself discreetly checking that the magazine is still locked in place, through my clothing.

I can't be certain, but I always thought later models of P226 had slightly stiffer Mag Catch Release Springs.

Many SIG models have easily reversible Mag Catch buttons so whether you are Lefty or a Righty, it may be preferable to swap it to the other side.

For all these reasons, an armorer or user may remove the Mag Catch.

Mostly, I agree though, that there is a little reason to remove one. Until recently, when I switched one on a friend's SIG (Lefty), I had only removed them a couple times on my own (no warranty) SIGs, just to see if I could do it without screwing the job up...I'm "1 - 2" so far.

MMM I have a W. German P226 and german P5, P225, so many more SIG classics from born on 4/1980 to newly produced.

First I've ever heard of this issue and I've never experienced anything like that issue with magazines being unlocked but still being in the gun or magazines falling out unintentionally after being secured or anything like that on any of the older stuff and I've had most of it over 15+ years.

I googled the issue and could find nothing anywhere about a similar issue.

So while it may help your mind to check if the magazine is in your SIG classic it sounds like its never been an actual issue.

FWIW, when I had that problem it had more to do with stiff magazine springs in new mags than the mag catch spring.

quote:

Originally posted by Austin228:
So while it may help your mind to check if the magazine is in your SIG classic it sounds like its never been an actual issue.

I've only been carrying SIGs for defensive purposes, mostly older P226s & P229s, for 28 + years, and I'm perfectly willing to learn from those who have more experience carrying them.

I suppose it's only an issue to those who have actually experienced it, which in my case was two separate occurrences with a carbon steel stamped folded slide P226, and, as already mentioned, I had chalked the occurrences up to the leather pancake holster it was carried in at the time, and the everyday bumps and knocks that happen when carrying guns. To test the issue years ago, I even intentionally pressed on the holster leather on the opposite side from the Mag Catch while wearing the gun in the holster, and while it took significant force in just the right spot I was able to unlock the magazine, without physically touching the Mag Catch Release. Mind you, it wasn't easy or readily done, but I at least prooved to myself it was possible.

I switched holsters years ago, several times in fact, and haven't had a reoccurrence, as of yet.

That a handgun should have a magazine inadvertently release from the locked position shouldn't come as a complete surprise to those who follow gun designs, as HK re-designed the magazine release on their early P7 PSPs to a flush mounted release to correct a similar complaint. Even the venerable M1 Carbine had it's Magazine Release re-designed mid-way through war production to correct for a problem with inadvertent releases.

Apparently the gun magazine writer who wrote the article I read as well as the company which tooled up to produce the heavier Mag Catch Release Springs he recommended considered it an issue, at least at the time it was written.

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
FWIW, when I had that problem it had more to do with stiff magazine springs in new mags than the mag catch spring.

I agree that we should always consider whether a magazine was fully and completely locked in place when troubleshooting an issue like this.

Speaking only for myself, I'm quite certain that the fully loaded well broken in mags were completely locked in place with an audible click, and verified by tugging on the base plates, when I later found the mags released.

quote:

Originally posted by donklekins:
...but having my favorite carry gun rendered inoperable pretty much took the wind out of my sails

I'm glad this happened at the range instead of a defensive situation if this is your main carry. Hopefully they can get it replaced for you, though by the posts in here that may be a long shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

quote:

Originally posted by Austin228:
So while it may help your mind to check if the magazine is in your SIG classic it sounds like its never been an actual issue.

I've only been carrying SIGs for defensive purposes, mostly older P226s & P229s, for 28 + years, and I'm perfectly willing to learn from those who have more experience carrying them.

I suppose it's only an issue to those who have actually experienced it, which in my case was two separate occurrences with a carbon steel stamped folded slide P226, and, as already mentioned, I had chalked the occurrences up to the leather pancake holster it was carried in at the time, and the everyday bumps and knocks that happen when carrying guns. To test the issue years ago, I even intentionally pressed on the holster leather on the opposite side from the Mag Catch while wearing the gun in the holster, and while it took significant force in just the right spot I was able to unlock the magazine, without physically touching the Mag Catch Release. Mind you, it wasn't easy or readily done, but I at least prooved to myself it was possible.

I switched holsters years ago, several times in fact, and haven't had a reoccurrence, as of yet.

That a handgun should have a magazine inadvertently release from the locked position shouldn't come as a complete surprise to those who follow gun designs, as HK re-designed the magazine release on their early P7 PSPs to a flush mounted release to correct a similar complaint. Even the venerable M1 Carbine had it's Magazine Release re-designed mid-way through war production to correct for a problem with inadvertent releases.

Apparently the gun magazine writer who wrote the article I read as well as the company which tooled up to produce the heavier Mag Catch Release Springs he recommended considered it an issue, at least at the time it was written.

I've only been carrying SIG Classics for 20 years but have never had this experience, 2 times over 28 years though could easily be user error.


We both have the stamped slide P226, I had a German P226 for about 10 years and I still have a W.German P226 I picked up later, I put a lot through the first one and have carried both and in addition carried my stamped slide P6, P220, P225, P228, never had this issue or heard of it.


I used to carry my stamped slide P228 in a Galco Leather Pancake holster and of many it was my favorite carry for a long time, never had that issue with it....

Oh you say it is the holster you used, what brand I wonder?

Probability wise it would be nearly impossible and not statistically significant to be able to apply elsewhere...as in to apply to all SIG classics

365.25 days * 28 years = 10,227 EDC(if you carry a SIG every day like you said)

2 out 10,227 = .000195 ->convert to percentage chance = .19% chance of occurrence.

I've never had it happen and have nearly the same years of experience as you.

Adding our experiences together and you're at .1% percent chance of occurrence.

If even .1% were true though we would have tons of reports of this happening, at least it would show up on the internet for sure from agencies reporting it, Navy Seals, The Army's original stamped slide M11(p228), a lot of other agencies, military use etc.

Then of course that sample size is far too small to be statistically significant.

If we expand it to include everyone/military/agencies with Classic Sigs who haven't reported this the probability will quickly approach a 0% chance as more samples are collected with a higher and higher degree of accuracy.

(eventually reaching a 0% probability at a 99% degree of accuracy, since research indicates no such issue exists)

(I have a engineering degree focused on probability)

I'm sure you feel this way about Classic SIGs, but feeling a certain way doesn't make something true/mathematically realistic/statistically significant.

It's a common logical fallacy -

Hasty Generalization

(also known as: argument from small numbers, statistics of small numbers, insufficient statistics, argument by generalization, faulty generalization, hasty induction, inductive generalization, insufficient sample, lonely fact fallacy, over generality, overgeneralization, unrepresentative sample)

Description: Drawing a conclusion based on a small sample size, rather than looking at statistics that are much more in line with the typical or average situation.

Logical Form:

Sample S is taken from population P.

Sample S is a very small part of population P.

Conclusion C is drawn from sample S and applied to population P.

Example #1 of logical fallacy:

My father smoked four packs of cigarettes a day since age fourteen and lived until age sixty-nine. Therefore, smoking really can’t be that bad for you.

Example *2 of logical fallacy

"I've only been carrying SIGs for defensive purposes, mostly older P226s & P229s, for 28 + years, ....I suppose it's only an issue to those who have actually experienced it, which in my case was two separate occurrences with a carbon steel stamped folded slide P226.......CONCLUSION its a real issue it happened to meeee


Note I just used what you said because it perfectly describes the "Lonely Fact fallacy, etc"

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
[O]ver the years while carrying a P226, I have had a couple instances in which I pulled the gun from a holster to lay it down and found the magazine was still inside the gun but had been released from the locked position.

I first got my permit about 20 years ago and started carrying a P229 that has been my carry gun 99% of the time since. I also switch the magazine catch to the right side of the gun so I can depress it with my trigger finger. In addition, my primary carry holster has always been a Galco “Concealable” model. When I first bought that model, the leather covered the right side magazine catch, and a few times after I started using it I discovered that the magazine had been released.

When I realized what was happening and deduced why, i.e., that pressure on the holster in a car or elsewhere was being transferred to the mag catch, I cut away the leather so that the catch fit into a notch. Since then in all that time I’ve never had the magazine be released.

Since then I have read comments by various gun pundits advising against moving magazine catches to the right side of the gun for that reason: pressure on the outside of the holster or the catch itself could release the magazine. Although my experience demonstrated the truth of that advice, there is a fundamental fallacy in making it as a general caution: the fact that left-handed users of guns like the 1911 have carried pistols with the mag catch on the side away from their bodies for over a century now without anyone’s becoming alarmed by the fact. Only after it’s become commonly possible to switch the catch from one side of many different guns to another has it become something for gun gurus to object to and comment on.

In recent years I’ve noted that the duty and tactical type holsters I have purchased in the period are deliberately designed to cover the magazine catch on either side to prevent pressure being applied when seated in a car or other situations. If I were changing my concealed carry holster, I’d check to ensure that it had a similar feature.

As for the issue of how many times magazine catches are removed from their frames, when my agency permitted only P220s to be carried for duty and I became the armorer, I instituted a policy of servicing the weapons every six months. As part of detail strip and clean, I always removed the magazine catch, so over the course of several years they were removed and installed numerous times for every pistol. By putting a piece of tape on the frame and using a polished tool to remove the mag catch stop the guns never suffered any extra wear that I could ever detect, not even on the finish. Sometimes I worried a little about the tight fit of some support plates, but with care their removal and installation never seemed to cause any problems either. Done properly, removing a Classic line pistol magazine catch should not make the sort of failure discussed above any more likely.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:


I have read comments by various gun pundits advising against moving magazine catches to the right side of the gun for that reason: pressure on the outside of the holster or the catch itself could release the magazine. Although my experience demonstrated the truth of that advice, there is a fundamental fallacy in making it as a general caution: the fact that left-handed users of guns like the 1911 have carried pistols with the mag catch on the side away from their bodies for over a century now without anyone’s becoming alarmed by the fact. Only after it’s become commonly possible to switch the catch from one side of many different guns to another has it become something for gun gurus to object to and comment on.

Yea, if anything it appears to be conjecture not a real issue that only affects SIG models.

In fact if true this should/would/could happen on every gun with American style magazine release given the wrong holster or user error/incident.

Again in that case there should be dozens of case examples of this happening and not just personal experience or gun pundits "infinite wisdom" - we know usually they just blow smoke,

I remember Masaad Ayoob saying how great the Mauser .45 made by SIG was gonna be

anyone remember that gun, I bet not.

I have found one article about this, on gun mag warehouse of all places.

Interestingly enough the writer basically does blame any gun with an American style mag release and a holster that covers the button.


It starts -
"Here’s a frightening scenario. You find yourself in a self-defense encounter. OK, so that’s frightening enough, but it can get worse. What if when you go to draw from your holster and fire your pistol, it doesn’t work? Or maybe it shoots once because your magazine is either unseated or, worse yet, completely missing.

What? How’s that happen? On (thankfully!) rare occasions, certain combinations of pistols and holster types have the potential to put pressure on the magazine release button, thereby unlocking the magazine from the pistol. That’s kind of a bad thing, especially when you aren’t aware that it has happened."

This guy is specifically blaming guns with "aggressive" magazine catches-to which he means "they stick out of the frame" ---wait buddy that means all of them, what a genius!

Here is the article for you two, or anyone else I guess that feels like reading

https://gunmagwarehouse.com/bl...g-pistol-inoperable/

So you never noticed anything go wrong during the string of fire? I would think something would have hit your hand. Strange.

A few years back I bought a CPO 220 DAK pistol from a gun store in PA. At first glance the gun looked fine but when I got it home under further inspection I found a small crack on the frame extending from the magazine release. I gave the magazine release a jiggle and the side wall of the magazine release cut out in the frame crumbled like a dry cracker. I sent the whole gun to Sig and they replaced it. They asked me what kind of 220 CPO I wanted and I requested an SA/DA gun instead of DAK and that’s what they sent me.

Here’s a pic before I noticed an issue. You can kinda if see a little bright metal around the magazine release which I probably thought was a scratch



And here’s the after

quote:

Originally posted by gpbst3:
So you never noticed anything go wrong during the string of fire? I would think something would have hit your hand. Strange.

I'm not the OP, but was shooting with him that day. The mag release button didn't fly out of the frame, but was loose/protruding and not retained properly.

Though I've appreciated all of your input, the onl;y one that really matters is what Sig thinks - Heard from them tonight. They are ruling a manufacturer issue and are going to make it right. Unfortunately, as expected, there are no more 220 compact frames. They gave me two options:

1.Put my compact slide/barrel on a full size 220 frame - (i'm not really interested in that)
or
2. Chose a gun from the current catalogue. Closest p series gun these days is a p229. hoping they'll ante up and give me an m11-al as it is the closet thing to my 220compact SAS (srt, no rail, might even fit my holster)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: parabellum,

quote:

Originally posted by donklekins:
Though I've appreciated all of your input, the onl;y one that really matters is what Sig thinks

Don't come here, ask for input and then get pissy.

And if you have something you want to sell, post it in Classifieds. Do not announce it in this thread. Sales outside of Classifieds in this forum are strictly prohibited.