I don't sell guns, Hence I accumulate guns. I literally can probably count the number of guns I have sold over the decades on one hand with fingers to spare.

That said as I get to doing from time to time my mind got to wandering and I started thinking about the laws.

I realize one cannot be in the "business of selling firearms" without having an FFL. I realize that this is traditionally a gray area at least up to this point but lets assume we all understand this for this exercise.

What I have always wondered was is this a prohibition/regulation aimed at forcing a NICS check vs. somebody legally selling FTF in a state where no NICS check is required between legal parties. Also for this exercise lets assume everything is legal and above board.

So lets say person X sells a ton of guns all the time and while they do not hold an FFL, they sell all of their guns either to an FFL or through an FFL (Basically running a NICS check each time). What if they make decent profit doing so? Does not having their OWN FFL still run afoul of the law/regs even though they are still running a NICS check each time, albeit by proxy.

Again this is nothing more than an academic question that has crept into my head now and then over the years.

And NO you can't have any of mine .......because every time I think about selling any of them I think of the memories, or the I might want it later or the but its so cool in its own right etc. etc.

Take care, shoot safe,
Chris

Selling "a ton of guns all the time" for profit will bring scrutiny. Liquidating a collection acquired over a long period to an FFL will not. Is that what you're asking? Or...just stick to your break barrels and forget about it.

Yes, academic, because after hardly ever selling, I doubt you will jump right to high gear/numbers.

The 1st question may be the State, big difference WY compared to CA.

I haven’t sold many over the years, I have reduced acquiring new irons, unless a deal falls in my lap.

Over the past 20 years, I reduced a few around the peripherals. Some of those include a minty Knight Mountaineer muzzle-loader. I have my 2 favorite Knights, plus others. I sold a heavy 3.5” chambered pump shotgun I hardly ever used.

Then there was the youth single-shot Marlin 22. It’s best for teaching the very young.

Truth be known, I normally only use a small percentage of the guns I own.

One other thing, certain guns lend themselves more to FTF cash(where legal) than others. I bought a CZ Scorpion a few years ago. The seller told me another came by to buy it, he gave him some gas $ & sent him away.

Not asking about liquidating and this isn’t a question specific to my situation or anybody’s for that matter. It’s not something I would ever be doing. It’s just a curiosity of the regulation.

If person x is buying and selling for the purpose of making a profit without holding an FFL but performs all of their transactions through an FFL (getting background checks done) are they running afoul of the regulations or is it a matter of “hey they have had background checks run on every transaction we don’t care.”

I’m not selling my break barrel airguns either…..ask my family for em’……..when I’m dead.

As far as BATF is concerned, conducting private party sales to avoid NICS is pretty low on their concerns. They do care about straw purchases and selling to people who are otherwise prohibited, but those are a miniscule subset of private party transactions.

I know guys who are fully legal to own & buy firearms and also prefer private party transactions, b/c they don't want the govt to be able to track what they own. Call them paranoid or whatever, but they're within the law and therefore barely register as blips on ATF's radar.

If you read the ATF's literature, you can infer that they're more concerned about people who are de facto operating as gun dealers w/o an FFL.

ATF P 5310.2 - Do I need a license to buy or sell firearms? Guidance to help you understand when a Federal Firearms License is required under federal law.

Some excerpts:

quote:

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and
sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast,
if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal
collection, you do not need to be licensed.

quote:

Courts have identified several factors relevant to determining on
which side of that line your activities may fall, including: whether
you represent yourself as a dealer in firearms; whether you are
repetitively buying and selling firearms; the circumstances under
which you are selling firearms; and whether you are looking to make
a profit. Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant
indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a
license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or
two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

I would suppose the issue with ATF would go away if you always sold your guns through an FFL. I could be wrong and you would probably still get visits from the ATF a lot more frequently than you’d like, but I suppose if they showed up and you told them you sold it to or through XYZ shop then they could follow the trail and there would probably never be an issue as far as atf is concerned.

Now maybe the IRS would have something else to say about it if you were making a decent profit buying and selling without paying your taxes.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

I’m not selling my break barrel airguns either…..ask my family for em’……..when I’m dead.

I call dibs on any Weihrauch's

You cannot sell guns for profit without FFL. And, yes, they will go after it. Here's one example.

link

Here's another not far from me.

Link

As far as selling thru an FFL; I don't know how you'd be able to profit since you can't buy wholesale without an FFL. Unless you're buying black market then that's a whole other crime. I suppose you could just use an FFL to ship but at some point, a red flag would go up.

quote:

Originally posted by pace40:

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

I’m not selling my break barrel airguns either…..ask my family for em’……..when I’m dead.

I call dibs on any Weihrauch's

You cannot sell guns for profit without FFL. And, yes, they will go after it. Here's one example.

link

Here's another not far from me.

Link

As far as selling thru an FFL; I don't know how you'd be able to profit since you can't buy wholesale without an FFL. Unless you're buying black market then that's a whole other crime. I suppose you could just use an FFL to ship but at some point, a red flag would go up.

Neither of the linked examples relate to the OP’s situation. Both were selling a lot of guns to people without having a FFL. They were essentially running a business without having a license, and not filling out 4473s or doing background checks.

The OP wants to sell through a FFL, which means that 4473s and background checks get done, and the guns are actually sold by the FFL (e.g. on consignment) and on their books.

quote:

The OP wants to sell through a FFL

The OP doesn’t want to do anything…….he’s just bored and curious.

My opinion, there is zero risk if you sell through an FFL. zero. The goal of the prosecutions to the extent they exist is selling without a nics check. Once that issue has gone away what possible claim might they nave. none...

For the sake of argument, many states have a "number" of transactions you can do in a calendar year. In CA it's five handgun transactions, but if I understand it correctly, that can be multiple handguns per transaction. I think there was talk of limiting it to 50 handguns per year but that is still unclear (and I would run out of handguns well before that...)

The term "in the business" is not particularly well defined. I can only think of one person who has ever had a "visit", and as I recall it was either following multiple guns he had sold coming up in trace requests or an abnormal number of multiple sale forms. He has an FFL now.

If you are legitimately disposing of or maintaining a personal collection, there is no need to be licensed unless your state imposes some sort of requirement beyond what federal law does.

Just like the OP the number of guns I've sold I can count on one hand and the number I've given away on the other one....

I've filled out a lot of 4473 forms... but contrary to what you see on TV and hear from all the politicians I have never had an FFL run the background check. I can speculate on my individual situation but not only did SLED (SC Law Enforcement Diveision) do an extensive background check on me back in 2005 when I applied for a Concealed Weapons Permit but they do the same every 5 years... but every time I apply for something out of state the FBI denies me.... In S.C if you have a C.W.P. and buy or do a transfer of a gun from an FFL there is no background check.

I think it is a slippery slope selling multiple guns as an individual. I do know that at least for me just about all I've purchased from individuals they pretty much vetted me ... not just filling out a bill of sale with my D.L. info but I would put my permit information on it too... which proves that I'm legal to own the gun.

Oh and here in CA all transactions (even PPT) must go through a FFL with a 10-day wait and a background check. Yes we do have universal background checks and all guns are now registered as part of that process (including all king gun purchases post 2015). To be truthful - the world has not come to an end as a result.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
...not only did SLED (SC Law Enforcement Diveision) do an extensive background check on me back in 2005 when I applied for a Concealed Weapons Permit but they do the same every 5 years...

Unless you have specific knowledge otherwise, I doubt they are doing anything beyond a NICS check themselves. The five year renewal period is unlikely to be a coincidence as it is the maximum time a NICS transaction number is valid.

I suppose then it turns on what an "extensive background check" is to you, but I've done "real" background investigations as a cop (on applicants) and they involved things like talking to your neighbors, coworkers, friends, etc., examining social media, reviewing a credit history, fingerprints, birth certificate, etc.

this is a relatively new problem, since background checks have only been a thing since the mid 90's,

and the 4473 was not started until 1968,


the profit is not really in new guns, as in if Bob buys a pile of Glocks, the flips them all w/o a license , he will not likely make any cash,
unless Bob has a crystal ball or throws some chicken bones to see what the next new collectible will be,
and buys accordingly


the used market is where the cash is, or can be, if Bob can buy a bunch of stuff from Bubba, on the cheap, or sit on it for a bit, and then flip it to anyone, money can be made

I know of one guy, years ago, that got in trouble for that, and lost his ability to own modern firearms, so he became a bit of an expert and shuckster on antiques and made a killing, until he got caught selling Native American stuff that was not legal,



I was told by an ATF inspector that once a firearm has been traded a couple of times it is almost impossible to trace,

and most stuff pre 68 was basically impossible,


meanwhile I see folks w/o a license, or maybe just a C&R at every show buying and selling, but not to the same degree as the FFL's,

and even tho VA requires all private party sales to go thru the NICS or rather Vchek system, compliance is low,

and yes, the ATF watches, and they will encourage some (or used to, doubt it now) to step up and get an 01, (known of a case or 2 where that happened)

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:

I was told by an ATF inspector that once a firearm has been traded a couple of times it is almost impossible to trace,

and most stuff pre 68 was basically impossible,

This is accurate. Anybody who has ever requested a trace knows how long it takes and how quickly it can lead to a dead end.

The manufacturer will disclose the distributor. The distributor will disclose the dealer. The dealer will disclose how they disposed of the gun. Eventually, you get to an individual who bought it on a 4473. If you can get in touch with that person and they say they sold it to a guy at a gun show or something five years ago, that's often the end. Sometimes they also pop up in multiple sale forms.

There was a high volume gun show wheeler dealer here who was on the feds' naughty list, but the nebulous definition of "doing business" discouraged them from prosecuting. Until he sold a gun to a minor from out of state. They then landed on him with both feet. But it took the kid's parents squealing on him to get prosecution started, even so.