I had been interested in these until I watched a YouTube video by a certain Northern Lawman....

Basically, and apparently, there is a LOT of 9mm ammo out there that is not suited for the recoil of a revolver. He managed to disassemble several cartridges in the cylinder. The bullets were literally pulled out of the hull by the recoil. Several more suffered severe stretch jobs.

Granted, these were mostly cheaper, range type ammo brands....but that's what most folks are going to use...you know, cheap range ammo.

Anyone have first hand experience with this phenomenon?

Not first hand with a revolver, but a friend's Boberg auto that yanks the cartridges out the back of the magazine is an efficient bullet puller with some brands.

I have an S&W 986 with several thousand rounds through it, using only cheap range ammo. I have never experienced this problem.

Great gun and I like moon clips.

same for me on the S&W, not a single issue.

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Anyone have first hand experience with this phenomenon?

Not first hand. But it makes a lot of sense. A purpose-built revolver cartridge case is actually rolled into the bullet a little bit. It can do this because it headspaces on the rim. But 9mm and most other pistol cartridges have to headspace on the case mouth. This crimp can only be made so tight before the case deforms or rolls the edge into the bullet. It will resist the impact of hitting a feed ramp once, but if you've ever re-chambered a pistol round multiple times, it is good for only a couple of times at most before it "telescopes." And this is a rearward impact, not the forward motion of the gun rising under recoil. This is similar to firearm scopes being unsuitable for a spring-piston-powered airgun; they are damaged by the motion of the piston slamming forward.

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He managed to disassemble several
cartridges in the cylinder.

Are you saying the bullets pulled completely out of the cases and spilled the bullet and powder inside the chamber? Yikes.

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quote:
He managed to disassemble several
cartridges in the cylinder.

Are you saying the bullets pulled completely out of the cases and spilled the bullet and powder inside the chamber? Yikes.

Yes. IIRC it was something like Blazer Al case (don't quote me on hat). But one of the brands, the bullet actually came out of the case & powder dribbled out of the chamber.

The testing process was destructive. He would mark a round, then NOT fire that round. Basically to see how many cylinder revolutions it took to "pull the bullet."

And I could mis-remembering things, it's been a while since I saw the video.
The recent threads on the SP101 & other revolvers just brought it to the top of my mind...

Never had ammo pull itself apart in the cylinder but I've always found recoil in 9mm revolvers to be unpleasant. From a S&W 940 to a 547 just not fun.

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Originally posted by ceptor781:
Never had ammo pull itself apart in the cylinder but I've always found recoil in 9mm revolvers to be unpleasant. From a S&W 940 to a 547 just not fun.

I agree. I was surprised when I had my 547 how harsh it was. It wasn't terrible, but I guess I expected it to be mild.

^^^ And people think I'm crazy when I say I want one with at least a 3" barrel.

Hasn't ammo disassembly been a problem that's cropped up with the Ruger LCR? Maybe the secret is to have enough weight in the revolver or something.

So I have a Ruger Blackhawk in 9mm as well as a Smith 986 Performance Center snubby. I used to own a Ruger LCR 9mm. I have never experienced a case separation. The only case separation I ever had was when shooting my old Smith 342 in 38 special. To my knowledge this happens with ultra lite revolvers who don't absorb recoil well.

Hudr, I can only say that I have owned two S&W 547s, a 940, a Ruger SP-101 9MM and Blackhawk 357/9MM convertible. Still own and shoot the 940 and Sp-101. I've used all kinds of ammo, even the more heavily loaded factory +P, +P+., NATO,etc. I've never experienced what has been described. I would think that I could probably keep shooting and intentionally leave one or more cartridges unfired in the cylinder,and at some point inertia would pull the bullets. Just haven't intentionally done that.

BTW ceptor, I understand what you mean about 9MM recoil in a revolver. I've chronographed a fair selection of standard pressure, +P, +P+, NATO, etc. ammo in revolvers. Even the standard pressure 9MM ballistics exceeded 38 Special +P ammo I've chronographed. Some of the +P and +P+ 9MM approximates .357 ballistics in the 2" revolvers. Sometimes 9MM feels closer to .357 than many might think in the little revolvers.

This would seem to dictate against using SilverTip 9mm in revolvers.

Shooting full power .357 Mag SilverTips in Scandium revolvers will result in the bullet moving forward and tying up the gun. Would consistently happen after 1-2 rounds. Personally witnessed this at our range when a gun writer was testing some T&E guns. This was a number of years ago...don't know if Winchester undertook any design changes since. Problem is that aluminum has a lower friction coefficient (softer) than copper jackets.

Yup, I’m dealing with this issue even as we speak.

The 9 mm supplement to the Ruger LCR Owners’ Manual warns about this.

They say (my words, their concept) that to test the suitability of a given type of ammunition, first measure the OAL of the round. Load a complete moon clip, five rounds, fire four of them, then measure the OAL of the remaining unfired round to make sure that it has not elongated.

I loaded some Hornady FMJ 115 grain bullets using ten percent less than the “minimum” amount of powder specified in the Lyman loading manual. Measured the crimp, again per the manual .390 near the base of the cartridge, .381 at the mouth, for a .009 crimp.

Test fired four rounds, found that the fifth bullet had walked .050 forward in the case.

Increased the crimp, bullet was still walking forward.

I decided to try some “store bought” ammunition, used the Federal 100-round Value Pack from Walmart. Fired four rounds, opened the cylinder to remove the fifth. Out of the corner of my eye I saw something gleaming, as the bullet from the fifth round fell out of the gun and landed on the ground, powder spilling all over my hand.

So much for store-bought range stuff.

Last week, I increased the crimp to .0145 (nominal is .009), the forward displacement of the bullet was .020, down from .050.

I’ll keep trying, increasing the crimp very slightly at each attempt, until the bullet stops walking forward.

I also need to get some good quality SD ammunition, such as maybe Speer Gold Dot, and test that. I’m thinking 147 grain, standard velocity (NOT +P).

The goal is to have a very mild load for the range, for SWMBO, and a reasonable SD load for her to carry.

^^^ Very interesting, as I have thought about getting one.

Does the LCR use moon-clips or does it have a special 'cylinder' bullet retaining system?

Uses moon clips but the gun will work without them. I had to tap empties out with a cleaning rod to remove them when I fired mine without moon clips.

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Originally posted by hudr:

quote:

quote:
He managed to disassemble several
cartridges in the cylinder.

Are you saying the bullets pulled completely out of the cases and spilled the bullet and powder inside the chamber? Yikes.

Yes. IIRC it was something like Blazer Al case (don't quote me on hat). But one of the brands, the bullet actually came out of the case & powder dribbled out of the chamber.

The testing process was destructive. He would mark a round, then NOT fire that round. Basically to see how many cylinder revolutions it took to "pull the bullet."

And I could mis-remembering things, it's been a while since I saw the video.
The recent threads on the SP101 & other revolvers just brought it to the top of my mind...

NEVER use aluminum cased ammo in a revolver, it's a big no no as the aluminum expands and gets stuck in each cylinder with revolvers.

Interesting I would not have never think that this would happen.

I have a j frame 360 14 oz 357 mag. 125 Hornady flex tip I can shot 15 rounds, Then I am done for the day, to shot anything, pain in my forearm. My Ruger LC9s pro at 21 oz shooting 124 HST I can shot 75 plus rounds with no problems and move on to shot something else.

The Ruger is 7 oz heaver and 1.245" longer barrel than the 360. The barrel axes is .5" higher on the 360 compared to the Ruger, measure from the center of the trigger to center of the bore.

I never had a problem with bullets walking with these two guns, using my reloads or cheap ammo and any SD loads.

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NEVER use aluminum cased ammo in a revolver, it's a big no no as the aluminum expands and gets stuck in each cylinder with revolvers.

I never use non brass stuff in anything. But at the conceptual physical level how is this possible true? Fired cases in semi's extract and that is as hot as a case will ever be.

Not that this is relevant to the thread but....
I decided to try CCI .44 special shot shells in a CA Bulldog as an anti-rattlesnake measure while mowing the yard. Last week I "tested" the rounds. Actually it was only one round: after the first round fired, two others in the cylinder jumped the crimp leaving me with powder & shot on my hands and a seized cylinder. The snakes appear to be safe at this point. Aluminum cases & lightweight revolver do not mix.

Suddenly the 9mm Federal is starting to make a bit more sense. A rim could be good; a crimp oriented towards light revolvers might be even better.