Is mag capacity the current "0-60mph" of the gun world?

October 18, 2024, 01:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Nick42:
The average number of pistol round hits to incapacitate a threat is more than two for 9mm and .45 ACP, per a study I read some time ago. That's hits, not shots, under stress, etc. If there are multiple threats, you can do the math. LE knows this.

Don't prepare for the average case, but for a worse case.

If I recall correctly, FBI statistics from about 10 years ago showed that it took 2.1 rounds of 45, 2.6 rounds of 40 and 2.9 rounds of 9mm to incapacitate a threat. So shoot at least three times.

October 18, 2024, 07:19 AM

cslinger

Ammo is expensive. I am not using that .9 of a round unless I have to.

October 18, 2024, 08:31 AM

elberettas

quote:
Originally posted by cslinger:
Ammo is expensive. I am not using that .9 of a round unless I have to.

I was just reminded of that scene in "Harley Davidson and The Marlboro Man."

October 18, 2024, 11:49 AM

jljones

quote:
Originally posted by Ogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick42:
The average number of pistol round hits to incapacitate a threat is more than two for 9mm and .45 ACP, per a study I read some time ago. That's hits, not shots, under stress, etc. If there are multiple threats, you can do the math. LE knows this.

Don't prepare for the average case, but for a worse case.

If I recall correctly, FBI statistics from about 10 years ago showed that it took 2.1 rounds of 45, 2.6 rounds of 40 and 2.9 rounds of 9mm to incapacitate a threat. So shoot at least three times.

Could anyone post a link to this? It gets handed down from person to person, but like Bigfoot, no one can actually prove they have seen it.

October 18, 2024, 12:29 PM

cslinger

quote:
Could anyone post a link to this? It gets handed down from person to person, but like Bigfoot, no one can actually prove they have seen it.

I've never seen this either. The only one that I've heard of, but never run down, that I THINK does have available documentation is that the NYPD has averaged around 8 shots across the board, which seems like a more realistic number. (statistically speaking, not saying there are not bullet sponges out there who've taken double that or more)

October 18, 2024, 12:31 PM

cslinger

quote:
I was just reminded of that scene in "Harley Davidson and The Marlboro Man."

"THAT HURT!! HARLEY!!!"

I love this moving. That Ruger in 454 Casull was so random.

October 18, 2024, 12:40 PM

Austin228

quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by Nickelsig229:
No, they dump mags until whoever they are shooting at isn't moving and they can safely disarm them.

Understand that this is not a good metric. Most cops can’t shoot. Most agencies are still training the same methods they did in the 1960s. Most smaller agencies train very little beyond shooting state mandated qualifications. Training and ammo costs money.

Most cops aren’t gun guys. We have a cultural problem in LE where hard skills are less important than learning about community oriented policing topics. Then when they mag dump, we act all surprised.

The culture is changing and there are a lot of red shirts out there putting out practical shooting training at the agency level.

Agree with this 100%, most of the special agents I work with aren't gun guys either.

Most just do their yearly qualification.

I think TV/movies have given people a false idea of what LEO's are like, most are great investigators, not firearms experts (or even long time amateurs/hobbyists).

I have met the few who train everyone else and they are experts, often they are also contractors.

October 18, 2024, 05:54 PM

Jus228

For me there does have to be a balance. If the gun is too big or too heavy I’m more likely to leave it home where it does me no good. I try to stick with something I’m always going to have on me. Most of the time that’s a G42 with 7rds in it and a spare mag. I can even carry it in the elastic waistband of exercise shorts on the mountain bike or just hiking in the woods and it just dissapears on me. I always have something bigger with A LOT more capacity in the truck, worst case I fight my way to that and use to evade.

October 18, 2024, 07:09 PM

XLT

quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
quote:
Originally posted by 12131:
quote:
As a civilian if you need more than 4-5 you have done a lot wrong ( situational awareness, not avoiding bad neighborhoods etc)

Here we go again with this tired old saying. This is a new century, where shit can happen to you anytime anywhere, by multiple armed thugs.

Indeed. The past few years has taught us a thing or two, if we’ve been willing to pay attention.

Carry capacity is and always will be a series of trade offs that YOU have to be comfortable with. I used to have a minimum of 31 rounds. In the last few months it has dropped to 21. The slim line Glocks are just so comfortable, and I get really decent performance.

I have become a really big fan of scaling. I can scale the 48 to 31 rounds by adding Shield arms mags. I can add a Taran extension to one and have a 20 round reload. Or I can swap to a 19. Did I mention how I like the 48 (and the 43x) and how easy they are to carry. My big concern with smaller guns is losing practical speed and accuracy. With the 48, I give very little up.

It’s a compromise and a choice.

have you ever tried the 365 legion? I too was a big fan of the 48 and 43x with shield mags until I shot the legion now both my 43x and 48 have been sold, I also have a 365 tac ops and like it allot but the legion gets way more use.

October 18, 2024, 09:05 PM

monoblok

quote:
Say, if the Hi-Point were to be as equally ultra reliable as the G19, the 92FS or the P228, why would I want to even consider it, when the others are much better looking.

That brick of a Hi-Point is probably more effective after you're out of ammo and then have to use it as a throwing weapon.

More ammo at one's disposal is never a bad thing. Words to survive by.

October 18, 2024, 09:42 PM

egregore

Within reason (you don't want the gun so large as to be unwieldy), there's no such thing as too much ammunition. There is a virtual glut on the market of compact and subcompact 9mm pistols for a reason.

October 19, 2024, 05:43 AM

Blackwater

quote:
Originally posted by jljones:

Indeed. The past few years has taught us a thing or two, if we’ve been willing to pay attention.

Carry capacity is and always will be a series of trade offs that YOU have to be comfortable with. I used to have a minimum of 31 rounds. In the last few months it has dropped to 21. The slim line Glocks are just so comfortable, and I get really decent performance.

I have become a really big fan of scaling. I can scale the 48 to 31 rounds by adding Shield arms mags. I can add a Taran extension to one and have a 20 round reload. Or I can swap to a 19. Did I mention how I like the 48 (and the 43x) and how easy they are to carry. My big concern with smaller guns is losing practical speed and accuracy. With the 48, I give very little up.

It’s a compromise and a choice.

The 43x is really my go to for carry. It may be just me, but even with 2 additional mags in pockets it feels MUCH lighter than the P365XL w/12 or any comparable size gun and shoots better to boot. I usually have 1 extra mag for 21 rounds, but have another spare in the console for 31. The overall package is so nice and light. I like the P365X Macro, but even the G19 felt lighter/smaller when carrying, esp when adding additional mags.