What I mean by this is it seems like that is the ONLY thing people focus on. X itty bitty gun only holds 10 or 13 rounds but Y holds 17 rounds so Y is obviously the only choice. Its a little bit like magazine racing with cars based on 0-60 times.

1st-Should magazine capacity ever be artificially/governmentally limited? HELLLLLL NOOOOO!!!

2nd-In general terms is more better? Absolutely.

3rd-Is somebody WRONG for carrying 21 rounds +1 in the pipe and a couple spare 33 rounders? No, of course not unless they are on fire or have to swim.

My point is that is not the ONLY metric you should be focusing on. How does it shoot for YOU, how does it carry for YOU, Is the capacity to size adequate for YOU? Do the financials and availability of accessories and parts make sense to YOU?

There is far more to a self defense firearm the simple capacity. Yes its neat that I can stuff 12 or 13 rounds in something the size of PEZ dispenser but on the other end of that stick I don't particularly care for needing to use a hydraulic press to do it and have the magazine look like its a claymore ready to go off either.

NOBODY knows if they will ever be in a fight.
NOBODY knows what their fight will be like.
Everybody should absolutely hedge their bets but not at the expense of those first 5-10 rounds either functioning or you being able to put them on target efficiently.

I realize I am largely preaching to the choir but it just seems like a great many shooters, probably who are a bit new, tend to focus more on SPECS then actual real world use and handling and I feel like this might lead some folks down the wrong path. Software first, hardware next.

Find what you SHOOT well and if you plan on carrying what carries well for you. Make sure it is reliable and safe. Don't do anything to screw up that reliability. Then move on to capacity.

Find the "envelope" that works best for you not a single attribute.

I just felt like bringing this up because I am getting tired of this 15 round gun is eleventy billion percent better then that 13 round gun and you will surely die carrying your meager 13 rounds. I got news for you. People die in gunfights all the time loaded and trained for bear without ever firing a shot. Moral of the story is don't get into gunfights and if you must, be effective with those first few rounds and a little luck wouldn't hurt either.

Sorry for the rant. I swear I am not becoming a Fudd. I have carried up to 35 rounds on my person but it fit my "envelope" of use so to speak. I am not saying NEVER carry more than X rounds, I am just saying to the new folks focus on the whole package not a singular attribute.

BAhh, get off my lawn, take care, shoot safe......I have wabbits to hunt and they are wascully sonsabitches.

I agree. But I carry a 5-shot revolver a lot, so I guess I'm sorta a Fudd.

As far as I'm concerned, shootability comes first, then carryability, and finally capacity. The first two might get swapped around a little depending upon the circumstances and need for concealment, but capacity is rarely a concern.

All else being equal I'd rather have the gun with the higher capacity, but I'm not willing to compromise the other things to get it.

I suspect so. A lot of duties can be easily addressed by 5-6 shot revolvers or sub 10 shot autoloaders but it seems capacity is king. Many people voice concern if the gun they carry doesn’t hold 17. As a civilian if you need more than 4-5 you have done a lot wrong ( situational awareness, not avoiding bad neighborhoods etc)

quote:

As a civilian if you need more than 4-5 you have done a lot wrong ( situational awareness, not avoiding bad neighborhoods etc)

Here we go again with this tired old saying. This is a new century, where shit can happen to you anytime anywhere, by multiple armed thugs.

365 legion best of both worlds in feel, shoot ability, concealment and 17+ capacity.

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Originally posted by 12131:

quote:

As a civilian if you need more than 4-5 you have done a lot wrong ( situational awareness, not avoiding bad neighborhoods etc)

Here we go again with this tired old saying. This is a new century, where shit can happen to you anytime anywhere, by multiple armed thugs.

Indeed. The past few years has taught us a thing or two, if we’ve been willing to pay attention.

Carry capacity is and always will be a series of trade offs that YOU have to be comfortable with. I used to have a minimum of 31 rounds. In the last few months it has dropped to 21. The slim line Glocks are just so comfortable, and I get really decent performance.

I have become a really big fan of scaling. I can scale the 48 to 31 rounds by adding Shield arms mags. I can add a Taran extension to one and have a 20 round reload. Or I can swap to a 19. Did I mention how I like the 48 (and the 43x) and how easy they are to carry. My big concern with smaller guns is losing practical speed and accuracy. With the 48, I give very little up.

It’s a compromise and a choice.

I think a J-frame with a lot of training is better than a P365 XL with no practice as it’s pretty easy to dump a lot of rounds quite rapidly without hitting an intended target. The person who is able to connect with the first couple rounds may not need any more.

I’d say high capacity with good volume training is best though many times it is just not that easy to carry such a load out as a civilian especially with certain types of clothing and in warmer seasons. Some pics of peoples EDC’s over the last few years have made me laugh more than once. I’d need a backpack to carry all the gear that some claim to fit in their pockets. There are a some that can carry a sizeable gun and extra mags, though I’d guess that the vast majority who carry just have one gun on them without a back up mag so it needs to be something that one will carry consistently and shoot proficiently.

Capacity to me is important in a sense though it is secondary. I forget the stats on gunfights though I could have sworn I had heard that over 90-95% of self defense situations utilize under 5 rounds. Of course the day that I ever get into one I’ll have my 5 shooter and need more than 10 rounds now that I’ve given my 2 cents.

When the shooting starts, you'll want as much ammo as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
I suspect so. A lot of duties can be easily addressed by 5-6 shot revolvers or sub 10 shot autoloaders but it seems capacity is king. Many people voice concern if the gun they carry doesn’t hold 17. As a civilian if you need more than 4-5 you have done a lot wrong ( situational awareness, not avoiding bad neighborhoods etc)

I hate to pile on, but I'm going to. I'm also going to go ahead and say it: This is Fuddlore.

If I have done a lot wrong, how does that mean I should give up my best chance at getting out of a situation gone wrong? Nobody's ever explained that to me in a way that doesn't sound bone-stupid. "Ooops, I wandered down the wrong street. I deserve whatever happens next. Fuck me, I guess. " Just... no.

I could always do more dry fire practice, but for live fire, I'm not a paid gunfighter and so I do what I can. I might never be a Jerry Miculek or even a Jerry Jones despite the level of proficiency I've attained and try to keep, so what I can do is carry more chances at hitting an aggressor rather than fewer. I have 18 rounds in my carry gun, and 34 more on my belt. If I know I'm going to be in the car for something other than driving around in town, I throw a couple happy sticks in the center console. Being a fellow Arizona resident, it's simply astounding to read the 1980's gun-counter jockey stuff from you. Do you have any idea what all is driving around in the other cars alongside you on the streets here every day? Have you ever really thought about it? I'm not trying to be insulting here, I'm just amazed that this mindset persists late into 2024.

I carry a 938. Thought about going to a double stack gun. But the 938 is the biggest small gun I seem to tolerate carrying. Now that the weather is cooling off, I might carry around a spare mag in the jacket pocket, the one with the finger extender.

I guess I'm just not one of the cool kids, (or is it kool-aid kids)

quote:

Originally posted by mindustrial:
I guess I'm just not one of the cool kids, (or is it kool-aid kids)

That, or you haven't been a situation where you felt like your life was actually being threatened. Get chased home by a road rager and backed into a place you can't get out of some time and let me know if showing that 938 to the shrunken-faced meth head with the ball bat is enough to get him to back the fuck off. I'm grateful I had a G19 and not something smaller.

I wasn't trying to say "you only need...." I firmly believe nobody will ever end a gunfight thinking they had too much ammo.

All I was trying to say was to focus solely on that attribute at the detriment of the others is folly in my opinion. If you can't grab/draw your tool of choice and get a good grip, and put those initial rounds out effectively rounds 18-19-20 probably are not going to help.

I just was trying to point out to new readers that focusing on a single attribute of a handgun may be counter productive.

"I have a "insert the tiniest 9mm dujour" and I can carry it with absolute ease anywhere" Great, can you draw it? Can you shoot it? Can you reload it? Does it work? etc.

Once you have addressed your ability to shoot, draw, manipulate, put rounds on target then focus on carrying as much ammo as you can fit into your daily grind. Don't start with I have 33 round big sticks......but I don't carry them, they cause issues, they are unwieldy etc. but by God I have lots of rounds.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
When the shooting starts, you'll want as much ammo as possible.

This is true, the only time you don’t want a lot of ammo is if you are on fire or drowning.

I EDC a 1911(8 rnds), I’m proficient. But I carry an extra mag. And I have four more in my trucks door pocket.

You can never have enough time or ammo in a gunfight….

Water also becomes scarce in a prolonged gunfight.

18Z50….may know something about surviving a gunfight.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:
I wasn't trying to say "you only need...." I firmly believe nobody will ever end a gunfight thinking they had too much ammo.

All I was trying to say was to focus solely on that attribute at the detriment of the others is folly in my opinion. If you can't grab/draw your tool of choice and get a good grip, and put those initial rounds out effectively rounds 18-19-20 probably are not going to help.

I just was trying to point out to new readers that focusing on a single attribute of a handgun may be counter productive.

"I have a "insert the tiniest 9mm dujour" and I can carry it with absolute ease anywhere" Great, can you draw it? Can you shoot it? Can you reload it? Does it work? etc.

Once you have addressed your ability to shoot, draw, manipulate, put rounds on target then focus on carrying as much ammo as you can fit into your daily grind. Don't start with I have 33 round big sticks......but I don't carry them, they cause issues, they are unwieldy etc. but by God I have lots of rounds.

I'll agree with you. Magazine capacity should not be the only metric a weapon is evaluated on. There are other factors that must be considered when selecting a defensive firearm. Those factors must be weighted based on projected use, enemy situation, civil/legal environment, etc.

I'll also point out that after the SIG 365 came out a lot of other companies have come out with handguns in the same size, weight and capacity range. A good amount of marketing money has been spent to ensure that those new pistol's virtues are extolled to your humble pistol enthusiast. Frankly, not being able to open a Gun magazine or firearms related website without getting hit with an ad for latest in Wunder weapons can get tiring, especially if an article about classic Revolvers or similar brought you to the site in the first place.

How a gun looks, feels, operates, and weighs is important to me. I want to have pride and confidence in my guns. Good looks don't hurt either. I can't control the magazine's capacity because I live in Connecticut. I used to carry one mag, be it 17, 13, or 15 whatever preban mag I had for the gun. They changed the law that stated you can carry only 10 regardless of preban mag or not. So now I carry at a minimum two reloads, 30 rounds on me.

A friend of mine and I watch alot of video footage from police shootings. He was amazed that you could unload 20+ rounds into a druged up perp and they won't die. It's nothing like the movies. In fact, in many videos, they are still fighting back or firing back after multiple gunshots. One even took a spinal hit and couldn't stand or walk but sat there bleeding out shooting back at some 5 or 6 officers who shot at him.

I also noticed that the officers in the shootings unload their mags. They don't shoot 2 or 3 rounds, check if the guy is ok, then shoot some more. No, they dump mags until whoever they are shooting at isn't moving and they can safely disarm them.

For me, it's a minimum of 30 rounds. It's a bit of a pain in the ass. I have to carry around two spares on my belt or in a pocket, but I won't settle for less after seeing what I've seen in the shooting videos.

quote:

How a gun looks, feels, operates, and weighs is important to me. I want to have pride and confidence in my guns. Good looks don't hurt either.

I know I've said before that reliability is number one, but actually, look has to be the initial factor. A gun has to look at least palatable to my taste, before I go further in my decision making. If it's fugly, I wouldn't give it a second thought. Say, if the Hi-Point were to be as equally ultra reliable as the G19, the 92FS or the P228, why would I want to even consider it, when the others are much better looking.

The average number of pistol round hits to incapacitate a threat is more than two for 9mm and .45 ACP, per a study I read some time ago. That's hits, not shots, under stress, etc. If there are multiple threats, you can do the math. LE knows this.

Don't prepare for the average case, but for a worse case.

I get what everyone is saying, and once in a fight more ammo on hand is never a bad thing.
Bear in mind police incident and private citizen incidents are very different and while a cop mag dumping might be viewed and completely acceptable ,the same is unlikely to be said of a civilian encounter.
Having a gun you can shoot accurately and manipulate efficiently is first, secondly it must be realistic to carry within the context of your lifestyle and circumstances and then capacity can be considered.
Not everyone can deal with carrying a full size 15+ shot gun regularly with spare magazines. Where you live work travel what your job is etc all play a role.

My nightstand gun holds 17 rounds, the gun kept in my car safe ( npe at work) is a 12+1 with spare 17 round mags x2.
For concealed carry my situation and environments result in me pocket carrying a J frame and / or ruger LCPII with spare ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by Nickelsig229:
No, they dump mags until whoever they are shooting at isn't moving and they can safely disarm them.

Understand that this is not a good metric. Most cops can’t shoot. Most agencies are still training the same methods they did in the 1960s. Most smaller agencies train very little beyond shooting state mandated qualifications. Training and ammo costs money.

Most cops aren’t gun guys. We have a cultural problem in LE where hard skills are less important than learning about community oriented policing topics. Then when they mag dump, we act all surprised.

The culture is changing and there are a lot of red shirts out there putting out practical shooting training at the agency level.