Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
Membership has its privileges |
So as not to hijack the other thread about what you want Sig to make. Are we far from the day, when you can call Sig and place an order for lets say, a P-220 Legion, chambered for .38 Super. With the technology today, I have to believe that day is not too far off. What say the Technology experts? Niech Zyje P-220 Steve | ||
|
| My other Sig is a Steyr.  |
I think they were able to print a 1911 about a year ago. Seems like the configurability of the Gen3 Glock architecture allows just about anything your imagination desires anyway. I have two in .38 Super, a 357Sig carbine, and a Glock clone with the grip angle of an M&P. Now all I need is a Glock in 9mm... With the demand for the Sig 10mm being fulfilled, A .38 Legion wouldn't be hard to imagine coming to fruition. | |||
|
| Gracie Allen is my personal savior! |
I have a nasty feeling that we may be waiting for yet another logistical revolution or two to supplement the whole "just in time" concept. SIG has, for the past fifteen years or so, developed an absolute horror of keeping inventory. I'm not sure I can blame them; I like factory 'bitsa' guns, but the way earlier production slides (for example) keep popping up suggests that inventory has been at least a low-grade nightmare for the company over the years. Having said that, that's also the way forward to being able to order 'bespoke' SIGs - when the technology and logistics are fast enough for relatively immediate responses, then SIG can make as many sales as possible based on orders rather than speculation about what the market wants. SIG would love that since it would make parts' time in inventory shorter and SIG would have a more detailed estimate of what parts it needed to make in any production run. I'm looking forward to the day when a handful of us at SigForum can batch-order something like a dozen or a couple of dozen Legion 220s in .38 Super. At that point we'll know we're on the edge of the Age of Custom-Ordered SIGs. | |||
|
"Member" |
I think the answer is "What's in it for them?" You could special order the configuration you wanted back in the 1800's, nothing new there. But it's got to be worth their trouble. Companies figured out long ago if you can't get the 19" barreled rifle you really want, you'll probably buy the 22" barreled one they make lots of. Special orders would need to be easy and very profitable. _____________________________________________________ Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911. | |||
|
| Member |
I see "special order" meaning not a production item different for made to order. Think cars. I think especially with modular pistols and rifles its coming. “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.” | |||
|
Member |
Systems engineer here. I had the same idea a few years back, especially as Benchmade was making made-to-order knives, AR-15s are maybe the most modular weapon on the planet, and the aftermarket for Glocks was picking up. But I think I get why it hasn't happened, and that's the support tail for tightly coupled components. Sig has changed their designs so many times over the years that making individual parts available would be a support nightmare. Think of how many times the P226, P220, even P228 and P225 have changed. Stainless vs. carbon slides, long vs. short ejectors, different frames, different magazines, and so on. It's a mess. And the tolerances on these guns are really tight, so who knows if the hammer from a modern P226 will work on one from 1991. I think Sig is starting down that path with the P320. The aftermarket for these guns is exploding, and more importantly they are a modern, loosely coupled design. Slides, barrels, uppers, and lowers almost freely interchange with no adverse effects. But the P320 is a wholesale redesign after two attempts at a modular polymer gun (Sig Pro and the P250). Right now I bet it's the least of their worries as they're filling military contracts. But I think in a year or so we'll see the "Build your own P320" program. Or a company like Lone Wolf or Brownells which specializes in innovative aftermarket solutions will start offering such a program. __________________________________ An operator is someone who picks up the phone when I dial 0. | |||
|
| Member |
are you kidding? Think about guys in the computer industry where the changes are in hours. Sig hasn't made a dozen changes in the Pseries over a decade. And nothing about made to order has to deal with will it fit an older gun. But I don't think customized Pseries are on the table, but there is no reason you couldn't do 320 or mpx/mcx. “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.” | |||
|
| Member |
The fgc9 is a thing so not far at all. | |||
|
| Member |
The technology and means are there, the pricing is not. It just doesn't make sense to keep switching machines around to suit individual orders. It's just not cost effective for a firearms manufacturer like SIG, who is efficient and profitable by making a firearm in batches and large volume. | |||
|
| Member |
I am in the computer industry. But let's go through the changes for kicks and giggles. - Slide material change, folded carbon steel to stainless steel (among with a bunch of internal changes) - Extractor, from internal to small external to big external - At least 4 different types of coating on the slide (blued, K-Kote, and at least two versions of Nitron) - Frame modifications when DAK came out (same time railed frames came out) - Rails (at least three versions, Sig proprietary, the current "standard", and M1913) - Beavertails - Mainspring strut (for E2 grips) - At least three different types of grips (old school, E2, standard two panel) - SRT and DAK trigger groups - SAS treatment - Frame modifications for 9mm versions to take the same magazines as the .40/.357 versions - SAO, which includes trigger group parts and frame mods (mostly Legion but there are a few SAO P220s and P226s floating around) There you go, that'a a dozen. And we haven't even started down the small parts like short triggers, different spring designs, or anything from the X series. And we haven't touched the different models that have come and gone such as all the compact or long slide variants of the P220, or here today, gone tomorrow models like the P227. But hey, let's take this even further. Why can I make changes every few hours with a modern software system? Because the systems I change are very fault-tolerant and loosely coupled. I have multiple layers of automated testing built into my release process. I have multiple levels of monitoring that indicate within seconds when there is a problem. I can roll back changes very easily if something fails in production. I can redirect resources to working nodes in a moment if something goes south, or better yet, it's automatically done for me. And this is all possible because modern technology is designed for change. 45 year old handgun designs that rely on close tolerances to safely operate? That's a lot harder, especially considering it's a tangible and mechanical item that needs to be at least 99.9% reliable for it to scratch at of acceptability. And when the failure condition is, "Gun goes off accidentally" instead of, "Customer can't complete online order", that's a very different risk-of-change calculation. __________________________________ An operator is someone who picks up the phone when I dial 0. | |||
|
| Member |
When you look at something like the CZ Evo, you realize a couple of lines of code could radically change the receiver parts. Barrels are already nearly interchangeable. I think the after market is where customizing will take place. Look at WC 320 frames-one modular piece changes the entire feel of the gun. | |||
|
| Member |
To get your dozen you have changes that literally span the whole lifetime of the pistol. That's decades. I think the milled slide started in 1997? KKote was gone with that and to my knowledge never in a US gun. E2 was what 2010. A modern service pistol has about 60 parts plus or minus. The front seat of a modern car has more. I'm not saying that building pistols made to order is a great business model or more profitable or any of that, I'm saying its not a very hard challenge and would be considered a trivial issue in most industries that offer configurable products. “So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.” | |||
|
| Member |
Yes, because industries start with a modular design, like the P320. We're getting pretty close to a made-to-order pistol there. If Sig starts selling the fire control modules direct then that's pretty much the last straw. Parts count has nothing to do with it. A 1911 has fewer parts than a Sig and there is no such thing as, for example, a drop-in thumb safety. Every one of them has to be hand-fitted to the sear. That's not counting sometimes-fit parts like grip safeties, bushings, and barrels. A made-to-order P22x series would be an implementation nightmare. There are for example five different *current* P226 frames: - Standard with rail - Legion DA/SA (short beavertail) - Legion SAO - TacOps/Emperor Scorpion (big beavertail) - Mk25 (M1913 rail) And we're not even counting anything related to the X5 series, stainless frames, or anything that was a distributor special or custom shop product. Keeping spare parts for all of those on hand would be challenging, and certain slide variations may not work with every frame variation (SAO for example). Clean slate, loosely coupled designs like the P320 are the future, and that's a good thing. __________________________________ An operator is someone who picks up the phone when I dial 0. | |||
|
| Left-Handed, NOT Left-Winged! |
I get annoyed at the variation among Sigs of current manufacture. Small parts are constantly changing. Even the same model of similar build dates, you see variation - night sights laser marked and not marked, barrel chamber roll mark of "Sig Sauer 9mm" in different font (straight or angled letters) and different location on chamber, P320 slide stops in glossy black and matte black. P320 serial number stamp laser etched, or roll marked, or pin stamped. The changes on the P365 to the striker - tapered vs. chisel point, three different plastic housings on the back. They are making running changes for improvements, but they don't change the part numbers (at least the service part numbers), and they seem to allow suppliers to change various things probably to reduce cost, but then the parts seem to get all mixed up and assembled randomly. Build dates on the pistol cases sorta correspond but not consistently. Took me forever to find a P365XL and P365 will all the upgrades from this year - new extractor (not sure reason), chiseled striker (to reduce primer drag), new striker housing (to prevent backplate slide downs) - there are three striker housings used in 2019, the v2 on early XL's and v3 on more recent XL's are different from v1 on most non-XL's until they jumped from v1 to v3, skipping v2 as far as I have seen. Yeah, I'm in manufacturing and there are running changes with mixed inventory, exhaust changes (use all old then go to new) and scrap changes (scrap all old parts and go to new), depending on how important the change is. But usually we try to exhaust old stock (if not scrapped) and have a serial number break point for the new parts. So I get it, but Sig seems to be worse than other gun makers. Comparatively, HK seems to keep a lot more consistency in the small parts, and major changes seem to be tied to model year. My P30's and VP9's all are pretty consistent in markings and small parts design/finish across several different years. Back to the OT. The problem with building to order is the system of using distributors, where only large dealers can go direct, and the amount of gov't control on gun sales. I'm not sure if it's really feasible or cost effective except for smaller manufacturers and higher cost guns. Almost every large gun manufacturer proliferates models instead of offering custom orders - look at S&W and Ruger and all of their SKU's - Sig isn't the only one.. That said - I am amazed at Sigs new 3D printed modular suppressors in 9mm and 45ACP. If they really work, you can configure any combination of number of baffles vs. sound reduction to get the best compromise for your application. | |||
|
| Member |
Wow, I knew it was bad, I had no idea it was that bad. Thanks. And I had forgotten about the requirement to use distributors. Great point. __________________________________ An operator is someone who picks up the phone when I dial 0. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
© SIGforum 2024