Good news for the good guys. I can remember fighting the lounge lizards trying to get night sights approved for my duty weapon (P220). The brass resisted any changes even if I paid for it. I did it anyway...

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
Side note, are there really any more rugged options than Trijicon at this point? Ive seen the Delta Points fail but I dont know of many people ringing out the Sig or Vortex. I personally only run RMR's or Fastfires, but the Fastfires are obviously reserved for sport gun vs serious use.

Sig allegedly has a ruggedized LEO Romeo coming out. No idea whether it will be available to civilians.

quote:

Originally posted by tha1000:

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
Side note, are there really any more rugged options than Trijicon at this point? Ive seen the Delta Points fail but I dont know of many people ringing out the Sig or Vortex. I personally only run RMR's or Fastfires, but the Fastfires are obviously reserved for sport gun vs serious use.

Sig allegedly has a ruggedized LEO Romeo coming out. No idea whether it will be available to civilians.

Id like to see that. I don't believe 've seen any Sig accessory that would run neck and neck with the more proven military optics. I have a Kilo 2000, Romeo 4C and Whiskey 3-15. I havent had any issues with any of them but the build quality just doesnt seem to be there. They also dont see hard use except the Kilo 2000, it doesn't get abused but it gets used a lot.

It's been nearly a year ago that the Pentagon learned there was a lot, a whole lot of head shots happening in the middle east. So (likely cost a million dollars, of course) sent an investigation team over there. Found out, although the red dot sights had been on armorers shelves for a long time__a few soldiers finally tried them out. Then hundreds after learning those head shots were due to the red dot sights.
What bothers me? I worked hard in the Marines (1950)to earn my Expert Rifleman badge. Now these
red dots make everyone an expert! Oh, well__ I still have my Expert Rifleman badge!
If you haven't looked seriously into these red dot sights, do.
Most critical remarks are from those that haven't used them.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo

quote:

Originally posted by Horn:
It's been nearly a year ago that the Pentagon learned there was a lot, a whole lot of head shots happening in the middle east. So (likely cost a million dollars, of course) sent an investigation team over there. Found out, although the red dot sights had been on armorers shelves for a long time__a few soldiers finally tried them out. Then hundreds after learning those head shots were due to the red dot sights.
What bothers me? I worked hard in the Marines (1950)to earn my Expert Rifleman badge. Now these
red dots make everyone an expert! Oh, well__ I still have my Expert Rifleman badge!
If you haven't looked seriously into these red dot sights, do.
Most critical remarks are from those that haven't used them.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo

huh?

Horn:

Please provide a link to this 2017 Pentagon report on RMR-equipped handgun head shots in the Middle East. Sounds like you've read it.

Which units had hundreds of soldiers routinely fighting at close ranges with pistols in the Middle East in 2017? Where in the Middle East were these frequent close range pistol fights occurring last year?

What types of pistols and red dots were they using? Since there were hundreds of soldiers equipped with pistol with red dots, and these handgun red dots had been sitting on shelves in armories for a long time, surely there must be logistics/purchasing info out there for the pistols, optics, and related accessories like optic-compatible holsters. Some NSN numbers, at least.

Why have there been no other reports from any other source of large-scale pistol optics adoption by US military units, or of widespread close combat handgun fights with frequent headshots just last year?

quote:

Originally posted by Horn:
It's been nearly a year ago that the Pentagon learned there was a lot, a whole lot of head shots happening in the middle east. So (likely cost a million dollars, of course) sent an investigation team over there. Found out, although the red dot sights had been on armorers shelves for a long time__a few soldiers finally tried them out. Then hundreds after learning those head shots were due to the red dot sights.
What bothers me? I worked hard in the Marines (1950)to earn my Expert Rifleman badge. Now these
red dots make everyone an expert! Oh, well__ I still have my Expert Rifleman badge!
If you haven't looked seriously into these red dot sights, do.
Most critical remarks are from those that haven't used them.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo

Wut?

quote:

Originally posted by Horn:
It's been nearly a year ago that the Pentagon learned there was a lot, a whole lot of head shots happening in the middle east. So (likely cost a million dollars, of course) sent an investigation team over there. Found out, although the red dot sights had been on armorers shelves for a long time__a few soldiers finally tried them out. Then hundreds after learning those head shots were due to the red dot sights.
What bothers me? I worked hard in the Marines (1950)to earn my Expert Rifleman badge. Now these
red dots make everyone an expert! Oh, well__ I still have my Expert Rifleman badge!
If you haven't looked seriously into these red dot sights, do.
Most critical remarks are from those that haven't used them.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo

Yea, I'm calling shenanigans on this one.

quote:

Originally posted by Horn:
It's been nearly a year ago that the Pentagon learned there was a lot, a whole lot of head shots happening in the middle east. So (likely cost a million dollars, of course) sent an investigation team over there. Found out, although the red dot sights had been on armorers shelves for a long time__a few soldiers finally tried them out. Then hundreds after learning those head shots were due to the red dot sights.
What bothers me? I worked hard in the Marines (1950)to earn my Expert Rifleman badge. Now these
red dots make everyone an expert! Oh, well__ I still have my Expert Rifleman badge!
If you haven't looked seriously into these red dot sights, do.
Most critical remarks are from those that haven't used them.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo

The version I heard was that it was Marines with ACOGs in Fallujah. Interestingly enough I've only ever seen it referenced on Firearms Forums and I've never found official corroboration of said investigation. Just because I haven't found it, doesn't mean it didn't happen of course.

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
Yea, I'm calling shenanigans on this one.

But don't be so hasty... I'm sure he'll be along shortly with reasonable answers to my simple questions.

They shouldn't be too hard to find, considering it all took place just last year.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
The version I heard was that it was Marines with ACOGs in Fallujah.

Same-same, no?

"Rifles with ACOGs in 2004" ... "Handguns with RMRs in 2017" ...

It's all just tomato/potahto, amiright?

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by SgtGold:
Yea, I'm calling shenanigans on this one.

But don't be so hasty... I'm sure he'll be along shortly with reasonable answers to my simple questions.

They shouldn't be too hard to find, considering it all took place just last year.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
The version I heard was that it was Marines with ACOGs in Fallujah.

Same-same, no?

"Rifles with ACOGs in 2004" ... "Handguns with RMRs in 2017" ...

It's all just tomato/potahto, amiright?

The ACOG one has been around for a while. This RMR one is new to me. I suspect neither is true.

Well, you know how rumors and urban legends are... They tend to come back around every so often, usually with some slightly different details to try and keep them relevant.

(I still want to read about all those close-range pistol fights our handful of advisers and Special Operations troops left in Syria and Iraq are engaging in, though... Sounds like a hell of a good story. )

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:

quote:

Originally posted by Horn:
It's been nearly a year ago that the Pentagon learned there was a lot, a whole lot of head shots happening in the middle east. So (likely cost a million dollars, of course) sent an investigation team over there. Found out, although the red dot sights had been on armorers shelves for a long time__a few soldiers finally tried them out. Then hundreds after learning those head shots were due to the red dot sights.
What bothers me? I worked hard in the Marines (1950)to earn my Expert Rifleman badge. Now these
red dots make everyone an expert! Oh, well__ I still have my Expert Rifleman badge!
If you haven't looked seriously into these red dot sights, do.
Most critical remarks are from those that haven't used them.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo

The version I heard was that it was Marines with ACOGs in Fallujah. Interestingly enough I've only ever seen it referenced on Firearms Forums and I've never found official corroboration of said investigation. Just because I haven't found it, doesn't mean it didn't happen of course.

The version I was aware of was it was infantry units equipped with the M68 CCO at ranges <200 meters. The flat trajectory plus the ease of aiming equaled a lot of head shots.

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:

quote:

Originally posted by tha1000:

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
Side note, are there really any more rugged options than Trijicon at this point? Ive seen the Delta Points fail but I dont know of many people ringing out the Sig or Vortex. I personally only run RMR's or Fastfires, but the Fastfires are obviously reserved for sport gun vs serious use.

Sig allegedly has a ruggedized LEO Romeo coming out. No idea whether it will be available to civilians.

Id like to see that. I don't believe 've seen any Sig accessory that would run neck and neck with the more proven military optics. I have a Kilo 2000, Romeo 4C and Whiskey 3-15. I havent had any issues with any of them but the build quality just doesnt seem to be there. They also dont see hard use except the Kilo 2000, it doesn't get abused but it gets used a lot.

This is from an interview with Yong Lee on the firearms nation podcast. I think they are leaning towards the sig optics due to his dept running 320’s and his experience as a Uspsa grandmaster and team sig shooter. I personally have no experience with the sig dots.

quote:

Originally posted by tha1000:
This is from an interview with Yong Lee on the firearms nation podcast. I think they are leaning towards the sig optics due to his dept running 320’s and his experience as a Uspsa grandmaster and team sig shooter. I personally have no experience with the sig dots.

Good thing is if it's able to be broken, cops / soldiers will succeed and we'll get more data on how good it might be!

quote:

Originally posted by Horn:
It's been nearly a year ago that the Pentagon learned there was a lot, a whole lot of head shots happening in the middle east. So (likely cost a million dollars, of course) sent an investigation team over there. Found out, although the red dot sights had been on armorers shelves for a long time__a few soldiers finally tried them out. Then hundreds after learning those head shots were due to the red dot sights.
What bothers me? I worked hard in the Marines (1950)to earn my Expert Rifleman badge. Now these
red dots make everyone an expert! Oh, well__ I still have my Expert Rifleman badge!
If you haven't looked seriously into these red dot sights, do.
Most critical remarks are from those that haven't used them.
Stay safe
Poli Viejo

When I first got an Aimpoint, it felt like cheating. So fast and easy to use.

I had shot some 3 gun matches with iron sights, and with that Aimpoint, my times dropped sharply overnight, and my accuracy improved a bit. The accuracy jump wasn't as sharp as the speed jump.

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
Ive seen the Delta Points fail ....

In what way(s)?

Based on the above linked report (thanks! BTW), my comment about the need for improved ruggedness was evidently not wrong after all.

Lens breaking when dropped on hard surfaces. Sage Dynamics has broken 2 out of 2. Yes, I realize its not normal. That being said, if 2 optics are similar otherwise but one is more likely to break than the other....I'll take the one that won't break. I think we're there with pretty much everything gun related these days. Most products will work reasonably well with proper care and maintenance that its getting harder to decipher if product A is better than product B. We then start taking things to extremes to find out(i.e. the MAC torture tests), and even then its still subject interpretation.

He also put 14K through the first one in his white paper. That is more than most LEO's will shoot in a career. I'm carrying one on top of an X-Carry for duty and love it. I shoot around 1K a month and haven't had any issues.

I actually prefer it to my type 2 RM06 that is on my off-duty 320c.

quote:

Originally posted by tha1000:

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
Side note, are there really any more rugged options than Trijicon at this point? Ive seen the Delta Points fail but I dont know of many people ringing out the Sig or Vortex. I personally only run RMR's or Fastfires, but the Fastfires are obviously reserved for sport gun vs serious use.

Sig allegedly has a ruggedized LEO Romeo coming out. No idea whether it will be available to civilians.

The T model was scrapped