Tried this today in my Glock and just wanted to see if it would extract and eject without the mag in and the first time it did (well sort of it fell out magwell) and second time it caused a FTE. Never tried this before and wouldn’t really do it anytime in real world application though just curious if this is to be expected or should it extract and eject fine without the mag? I’m thinking the spent case drops down too far and then can’t escape right?

The extractor should have sufficient hold on the case rim to keep the case in position to be kicked out of the ejection port by the ejector, regardless of the presence of a magazine.

When the whole Glock brass-to-the-face hysteria was going on, people were trying the technique you've described, as a way to diagnose the cause of the BTF issue.

I'd be curious to see how a sampling of other pistols would fare- SIGs, HKs, Walthers, etc.

Now that you bring that up I vaguely remember hearing people do that. I also agree that it should work regardless of magazine.

It would indeed be interesting to see how other manufactures fare.

People have been incorrectly correlating extractor function frequently as of late. There is a well known 1911 extractor test that is applicable ONLY to 1911’s. Empty brass falling though the mag well of a Glock or other modern platform bears NO correlation to proper or improper extractor function.

More likely, your FTE was caused by limp-wristing. I see this in my firearm training, when folks are practicing firing one shot drills. They know they're only shooting once, so they fail to keep their grip firm after firing. They pull the trigger and immediately relax, resulting in a limp-wristing jam. Typically a stovepipe.

Ah yes the infamous Glock limp wristing defense. I have shot Glocks for over 10 years competitively as well as shot just about every other make out there from Sigs to Betettas, to HK’s and more. I’m not sure if I have ever limp wristed other than when trying to induce a malfunction years ago, which did not and should not, though I understand the mechanics of why it may. I kept my grip (maybe not AS tight as when doing a full mag dump), but it was sufficient that it should have cycled. The pistol ran 100% otherwise, just with this one round I wanted to test out of curiosity. Just never done it before and was suprised it didn’t clear. Prolly would never ever be an issue and I won’t test it again most likely, but it would be nice to know it could do it without issue.

I guess I just don’t know why if the action is so fast and it extracts and pulls the case back against the ejector, how could it drop so quickly and if this is indeed what’s happening, then every round is getting bumped out and assisted by the next round or at the end the mag follower. Do cases drag along the follower before ejecting? Seems like they should not as it would create just that....drag, that would slow the travel and make for more possibly to get FTE’s in general right?

It amazing that all I think I DO know after a couple decades of owning guns and shooting, there is still a lot I DO NOT know. Never really used to think about mechanics, just “went shooting” and cleaned the guns after, I’m sure like so many people do.

I occasionally fire rounds w/o mag as training, fast follow up shot shows if I flinch.... Similar to having a dummy round loaded in your mag. All my Glocks (Gen 3's) will not reliably extract w/o a mag. Brass either stove pipes or drops though the magwell. Limp wrist is not the cause of the problem. A Apex extractor fixed it for me, 100% reliable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYsHuLC0Kyg

quote:

Originally posted by captain127:
People have been incorrectly correlating extractor function frequently as of late. There is a well known 1911 extractor test that is applicable ONLY to 1911’s. Empty brass falling though the mag well of a Glock or other modern platform bears NO correlation to proper or improper extractor function.

This 100%

For what it’s worth I called Glock and they said it would indeed do what it did and not eject properly or fall through the magwell as the magazine helps to brace and kick out the shell and keep the frame from taking up all the recoil energy.

Yup armorers class earlier this year stated this is by design as far as it falling out the magwell with no mag. The magazine is considered part of the system for ejection. FTE is obviously not by design but lots of reasons for that.

quote:

Originally posted by LincolnSixEcho:
For what it’s worth I called Glock and they said it would indeed do what it did and not eject properly or fall through the magwell as the magazine helps to brace and kick out the shell and keep the frame from taking up all the recoil energy.

Well, at least you know it is normal, and that your pistol isn't broken.

I guess this is a "no harm, no foul" sort of thing. If there isn't a mag in, you won't be shooting another shot without a reload, so a round dribbling out of the mag well, or hanging up in the port probably doesn't cause a problem.

All-in-all, though, I'd rather have a design where a magazine did not have to be in the gun to ensure proper extraction and ejection.

I “think” I’ve seen our own jljones in a video that was about reducing second shot twitch. Again, if I recall correctly, this was his method. Load one round then drop the mag and fire the single round. On what would now be a second round (empty chamber) pull the trigger and see if there’s any movement.

quote:

Originally posted by jbcummings:
I “think” I’ve seen our own jljones in a video that was about reducing second shot twitch. Again, if I recall correctly, this was his method. Load one round then drop the mag and fire the single round. On what would now be a second round (empty chamber) pull the trigger and see if there’s any movement.

We run the same drill with cadets and officers that are struggling with jerking the trigger or flinching.

We also run a similar drill where an instructor takes the shooter's empty gun, turns their back, either pretends to load or actually loads a round from a magazine, removes the magazine, and inserts the gun into the shooter's holder. The officer then draws, aims, and fires the gun, either resulting in a bang or a click. The instructor then repeats the process.

Kind of a poor man's "ball and dummy" drill, useful when you don't have dummy rounds available.

This sounds to me like something I definitely now want to test in my carry guns. And I think it does have a real-world application. I mean, we practice tactical reloads to top off the gun while leaving a live round in the chamber for the mag swap, gun pointed toward the perceived threat, presumably to deal with a sudden threat that may appear during the second-and-a-half it takes to swap mags, right? It makes sense to know what’ll happen if you actually had to fire that chambered round. I’d be disappointed to find that my gun would jam somehow preventing insertion of the fresh mag. I know it’s not likely to jam in such a fashion, but now I’m thinking I may test it anyway.

But Inshould say that I’m the guy that occasionally drives back by the house to make sure I closed the garage door. Well, that was before I got the app that would tell me. Ok, sometimes I don’t trust the app and still drive back to check.

I know my Ruger KP90DC, Sig P232, and P226 will all eject their brass.

The only semi I have which won't is the CA compliment MKIII Hunter. It won't fire unless a mag is installed (to many idiots in this state not treating all weapons as if they're always loaded).

Of the scale of shit to worry about, this is really low on my list. As long as the gun extracts/ejects, I could care less what it does when the mag is out. I look at the whole tactical reload thing, sorta like I view the "NEVER-LOOK-AT-THE-HOLSTER-WHEN-YOU-ARE-HOLSTERING-BECAUSE-YOU-WILL-GET-KILLIFIED-FOR-TAKING-YOUR-EYES-OFF-THE-THREAT" business.

First off, I am not putting the gun up until the threat is a crumpled, bleeding, and probably deceased mess. I am also not going to top up the gun until such a time that the threat is a crumpled, bleeding, and probably deceased mess. I am also doing neither unless I have TIME-DISTANCE-COVER. And I have checked the area to make sure he has no buddies. Then and ONLY then, would I holster or top up the gun. There is no race to the holster, and no race to top up.

So whether the gun properly extracts/ejects with the magazine out is pretty low of the list.

I'm with Jones on this.

Even if you are doing a tac reload and something happens in that 0.0237 second making you need to fire with the magazine out, the gun will still fire, whether or not it ejects normally or not. And after doing that, you will need to insert the mag and cycle the slide since it wouldn't be held open after the last shot, so if a piece of brass is stovepiped, I really don't care.

jljones and RHINOWSO, all valid points, and I appreciate your perspectives. After pondering it further, I agree there are better things to focus my training time on. I always learn something on this forum!

Nothing to add on if this is a "feature" or requirement, but at the range yesterday I tried this with a VP9, P30, and P30SK. All completed the normal firing/extraction cycle and the brass followed a similar path as the brass fired with rounds in the magazine. So a very limited sample, valid only with these guns, on that range, with this ammo, and only while I'm smiling a certain way.