I love my FM M90 Detective. Instead of sending it off I did the tweaks: C&S parts, hand stippling, Spegel grips, etc. Did have a local firm blue the result.

I can answer some of the date code questions for the OP but the pics are huge and make it hard to work in this thread. Anyway to get them resized?

I will work with what is there but not repost the pics. I will list the # of the pic as a reference. If I skip pics its because there is no new info contained in them vs what have come before.

Pic #1 You can see the proof of smokeless powder proof "PV" which stands for Poudre Vive" on the the slide and the frame. This the PV and the lion. The *S is an inspectors mark used by Charles Daenen from 1952-1968. Same info in P #2 and #3.

In Pics #4 - #7 you see a serial number which is a very low number. As others pointed out FN used would put whatever serial number range you requested on contract guns. This is a Austrian contact gun but the serial number does not tell you much on its own. In these pics you again see the proof of Liege and the *S inspectors mark and the PV proof. I addition you can see Final Proof or Proof of Liege. Some people refer to this as the Pineapple Proof for obvious reasons.

Pic #9 You can see the import mark. This is a CDI Sales import AKA Coles Distribution out of KY. He was a major importer of surplus BHPs. His shop burned to the ground a few years ago. It was a total loss.

Pic #12 is what tells you that this is an Austrian contract gun. LGK K 0128. This means the gun went to Karnten or Carinthia. The issue # for the psitol is 0128. The Austrians used BHPs starting in 1949 but in 1955 IIRC they placed a large order of 10,000 pistols.

Pic #13 gives us a clear pic of a date code. The 2 in a partial box tells us the barrel was produced in the 4th Qtr 1952.

Pic #17 This pic of the mags shows that they are original to the gun because they have the same LGK K code and issue number.

Pic #18 tells us that one mag was made in the 3rd Qtr of 1953, 3 sided box with the 3, and the is other 3rd Qtr 1954. The 4 in a 3 sided box.

Pic #18 There again looks like a 3 sided box with a 4 in it. So the firing pin retaining plate was made in the 3rd qtr 1954.

So dating older BHP is more art than science. They kept horrible records. With these pistols most of the time you are only able to make a WAG as to their actual date of manufacture. They are like a puzzle. From what I see we know the inspector worked from 1952-1968. The Austrian contact started in 1955. We have small parts and mags made from late 1952 to 1954. Looking at the serial number I would estimate that this is an early 1955 contract gun. Possibly #284 of the entire contract if we assume that they started with #1.

As to value. The gun has a secondary import mark which was discreetly done. This effects value to some extent but with the matching mags the gun has high collector value. It it like most collectibles worth what you can get some one else to pay you for it. Similar guns will sell on GB anywhere from $1500 to the moon if the right bidders get involved. If I owned it I would insure it for $2000 +/- because if you had to replace it that amount would allow you a reasonable shot at doing so.

It is a very nice example. I personally would not reinstall the magazine disconnect. I would try to source a period correct one but leave it out of the gun. There is potential to damage the gun reinstalling it. Also I would not shoot the gun too much. The internal extractor is a weak point in the original design. They can crack. Never load the pistol placing a round in the barrel and then closing the slide. Always load from a proper mag. I know it is stupid to have to say that but some people do it and it can snap the extractor. FN replaced it with the external extractor to improve function and reduce production cost. No one makes internal extractors any more. If it were to break it would be hard to find a period correct replacement. If you want to shoot this gun on a regular basis I would source a 2nd extractor. Install it and keep the original in its current condition. Be careful installing the new part. Its current condition and finish are adding a lot of value to this pistol. That said a box of ammo a year isn't going to hurt this gun IMHO.

Great find. It is a beauty, Enjoy it and I hope that this info helped.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: WVsigP228,

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:
So if one were looking for the ideal base hi power for a build, would it be a MKIII? T Series?

I contemplated getting a surplus gun but I imagine im going to end up in the 1500 range for the work I want done. Does it make sense to find a clean commercial HP vs surplus even it cost a few hundred more?

There is a lot of debate when it comes to BHP base guns. Older forged framed guns like T & C series have some collector value and are generally not a durable as the later model MKIIIs with their cast frames but dimensionally the later guns are slightly different.If you are looking to have your grip strap checkered, currently only Mr Yost does checkering, you have to go with a T series, a Practical, some of the hard chrome guns or a later model FN rollmarked MKIII. These all have serial number locations not on the grip strap. Not all pistols of these types will work for checkering. I sent Mr Yost a T series for a Signature build but the grip strap was too thin so I used an early forged frame MKIII for my build.

Most people will tell you if you are looking for the gun to be a hard use pistol then you should use a MKIII. They have the mist durable frame and can take more +P ammo than other vintages. The days with 9mm JHP performance being what it is I don't see the need for +P so for me it is not an issue. I have used T series, C series, MKIIIs and MKIIs for custom guns. I do not believe that I am going to shoot any of them enough for them to fail on me.

Some smiths will not work on surplus guns. Mr Yost prefers not to but I believe will look one over if that is your choice. Don Williams, Novak, Garthwaite etc... will work on whatever you send them. That said to me its not about surplus or not surplus if you are going to put $1,500 into a custom BHP above the cost of your base gun you need to use the best example you can get, for the proper price, to accomplish what you want out of a build.

If I have the choice between a surplus gun or a commercial gun for the same price in similar condition I am going to take the commercial gun. The odds of it being a high round count gun or abused in the line of duty is much lower in a commercial example IMHO. This does not mean you cannot use a good surplus and get good results. I I asked Mr Yost about it using a surplus gun and he said that for the most part he discourages it because as he said in his words. Paraphrasing a bit "I have never had someone complete their build and tell me I am sooo glad that I used a surplus gun for my custom work". Other people say why pay more than you have to for what ends up being a frame, slide and maybe a barrel. A lot of the other parts get replaced in a custom BHP build. Both can work but always start with a good clean base IMHO. If you know where to look and you shop smart you can still find nice BHPs in the $600 range in VG to excellent condition. They are out there you just need to be patient.

Think about are you building a BBQ or a working gun. Is it going to be carried? Used to shoot competitions or just range plinking? If I want a straight BBQ then a T series is great. Hard use gun I might lean towards MKIIIs. In the end you need to pick the right smith to do the work you want as well. Here are a few pics of some of my custom BHPs in no particular order.

Ted Yost Signature Grade on a Forged Frame MKIII







Alloy BHP by Don Williams




MKIII by Jim Garthwaite





Basic Old school Novak Build on a C series.



C series in Ford Master Blue with Bomar sight.



T series with S&W sight by APW Cogan



C series by Jim West of Wild West Guns

Nice collection.

quote:

Originally posted by WARPIG602:

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Do I understand correctly that you intend on customizing this pistol, this Austrian police High Power?

That was my original intent. I didnt know exactly wht it was until I got it. Initially, the seller said he had a mid fifties hi power and sent a couple pics. Looked fairly clean and I thought it was a good candidate for a custom job. After getting it and seeing some of the markings I wasnted to figure out exaclty what it was before I ruined an otherwise collectible gun.

Personally, I'd keep it as is. That's a pretty cool gun from a historical standpoint. Although I must confess that I've got three H&K P7s that were all former police duty weapons and did send one off for installation of tritium vials to the sights and an Np3 refinish.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Get a MkIII, made before 1995. Before 1995, High Powers had forged frames. After that, the frames were cast. You can tell the difference between forged and cast HP frames by examining the base of the grip. If the bottom of the grip is striated, it's cast. If it's smooth, it's forged.
What's wrong with cast frames on a High Power? Nothing, and as a matter of fact, cast frames are tougher. FN introduced the cast frame for the HP because of the .40 calber chambering for the pistol. Firing the .40 in a forged frame HP caused the frame rails to warp and lock up the pistol tighter'n Dick's hat band.
It's an aesthetic choice only, but I'd want a forged frame MkIII if I were going to turn it into a very expensive pistol.

Cast started in 1993 and forged frame continued to be used into the mid 90s. From 1993 to 1996 you see a lot of variance in the frames. Plenty examples of both during that transitional period. FN always had old new stock frames and parts as is illustrated by the date codes on the OPs pistol. Not all cast frames have the serrations. Early ones do not but they all have a casting mark inside the frame in the magwell. If you take the grips off you can see it. With FN dates of production are never hard and fast. They are at best fluid.

There are also slight dimensional and weight balance differences between a cast and forged frame. They are small but the 2 guns "feel" different in the hand. Both have positives and negatives to them in terms of a base gun but honestly if you send it to the right smith the aesthetic differences of the base gun will not matter in the end result. The final fit and finish from guys like Yost, Garthwaite, Williams etc... are as good as you are willing to pay for. IMHO better than almost anything FN every produced.

WVsigP228- Impressive collections. Not to hijack the thread, but any suggestions where to find a commercial MkIII HP for less than $800? On GB and other auction they usually go for around $1000. Thanks.

So I’ve had several Hi Powers myself. I had a stock mkIII which I really liked, but I have very acidic sweat, and Hi Powers are known to have very non-durable bluing. My sweat ate through the bluing in no time and I ended up trying skateboard tape and eventually Pachmayr grips on it, but that changed the ergonomics drastically. So I ended up selling that one.

I replaced it with what was probably my all time favorite gun. One of the original Novak 357/.40s&w with a hard chrome frame and Black slide. I then had Don Williams build me a 9mm slide out of a surplus unit he had laying around. Fantastic package gun, and probably my most regrettable gun sold.



Then, I happened upon this Jim Garthwaite build out of an Argentina Surplus frame which was hard chromed with a blued slide. The trigger package on this unit really opened my eyes to how good a trigger the Hi Power can have. It has Garthwaite’s tool steel fire control set, and it puts any other Hi Power trigger I’ve felt to shame. And I mean seriously put to shame. I’ve felt Novak’s, Don Williams’, Yost and others, and none of them are anywhere near the same league. I highly recommend this modification, if you are going custom. You won’t be sorry.



One more just for reference of custom work. This is my Garthwaite and my brother’s Don Williams (The Action Works

quote:

Originally posted by Pistole226:
WVsigP228- Impressive collections. Not to hijack the thread, but any suggestions where to find a commercial MkIII HP for less than $800? On GB and other auction they usually go for around $1000. Thanks.

Local shops sometimes but honestly GB has had a lot of good guns for under $1000.

$842
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/805337101

$611
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/811174759

$710
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/813870540

$650

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/813865477

quote:

Originally posted by yugo308guy:
So I’ve had several Hi Powers myself. I had a stock mkIII which I really liked, but I have very acidic sweat, and Hi Powers are known to have very non-durable bluing. My sweat ate through the bluing in no time and I ended up trying skateboard tape and eventually Pachmayr grips on it, but that changed the ergonomics drastically. So I ended up selling that one.

I replaced it with what was probably my all time favorite gun. One of the original Novak 357/.40s&w with a hard chrome frame and Black slide. I then had Don Williams build me a 9mm slide out of a surplus unit he had laying around. Fantastic package gun, and probably my most regrettable gun sold.



Then, I happened upon this Jim Garthwaite build out of an Argentina Surplus frame which was hard chromed with a blued slide. The trigger package on this unit really opened my eyes to how good a trigger the Hi Power can have. It has Garthwaite’s tool steel fire control set, and it puts any other Hi Power trigger I’ve felt to shame. And I mean seriously put to shame. I’ve felt Novak’s, Don Williams’, Yost and others, and none of them are anywhere near the same league. I highly recommend this modification, if you are going custom. You won’t be sorry.



One more just for reference of custom work. This is my Garthwaite and my brother’s Don Williams (The Action Works

Garthwaite does great work. I lot my Garthwaite MKIII. It is a amazing pistol. I love his flat trigger. I can't say that I think it is the best one in the safe but it is top 5 without a doubt

Just to be clear, I meant best Hi Power trigger I’ve ever felt, not best overall, although it is very close. My Ted Yost 1* and my former Novak 1911 were slightly better.

Keep this one stock as it is, being as it is internal extractor like a previous poster mentioned. Extractors for early BHP's suck to find. Get a Mk II or MKIII and go to town, that's what I did. I had a C&S trigger, sear, disconnect done and a stipple job from Alex Hamilton of 10 ring precision. gun shoots 4.5 lb trigger all day and its smooth. My only regret is keeping the IDF sights. Now I have to send it off to novak or somewhere else for new front and rear sights to be cut in

You'll see various proof marks on these FN manufactured guns that look like a "number in a partial box", these are date codes. For example,the "number 3 with a left and top border" on the right side trigger guard above the number 8 indicates it was proofed in the 2nd quarter(April-June) 1953. The number 4 in a partial box proofs you see on the back of the magazine and hammer area are 3rd quarter 1954.