Does anybody know what model sidearm is used by Seminole County FL Sheriff department?

I heard a rumor that they are changing from .357 SIG to 9mm, but the rumor did not include the model(s).

SIG P226 DAK 357 SIg will be going to SIG 320 357 sig

quote:

Originally posted by cwt7691a:
SIG P226 DAK 357 SIg will be going to SIG 320 357 sig

I've heard this but I also heard rumors of it going to P320 9mm. HOWEVER, I believe they're invested in the .357 cartridge.

Interesting discussion since I have recently started researching the Dept and looking to transfer to the Orlando or Ocala area to be closer to my family.

I am one of the armorers for the Seminole County, FL Sheriff's Office and am in charge of the armory. We are in the process of transitioning from P226 DAK's in .357 Sig to P320 Carry's in 9mm. Under the state contract price, we will save over $33,000 a year on ammunition.

If you're interested in working for us, we're hiring. My official email is dlane@seminolesheriff.org

Seminole county always had a GREAT reputation when I lived in the Orlando area. I worked for Orange County SO for a stint.

Out of curiosity, what duty ammo was used for .357 Sig, and what will the new 9mm duty ammo be? Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by K.O.A.M.:
I am one of the armorers for the Seminole County, FL Sheriff's Office and am in charge of the armory. We are in the process of transitioning from P226 DAK's in .357 Sig to P320 Carry's in 9mm. Under the state contract price, we will save over $33,000 a year on ammunition.

If you're interested in working for us, we're hiring. My official email is dlane@seminolesheriff.org

K.O.A.M.- Did you guys T&E the P320's? We are still not sure about trading our Glocks in for these yet. I hear good things and like the modularity, but just not sure. Inquiring minds would like to know. Thanks!

We did T&E the P320's. Command staff wanted us to test both the 320 and the Glock. The actual guns we used for the test were a full size P320 in .357 Sig and a Glock 31, also in .357 Sig. Each shooter that came out to Block 2 Firearms (mandatory LE, optional corrections) shot 18 rounds with each pistol at a minimum. This was three six round strings-strong hand only, support hand only, both hands. We shot on steel for the instant feedback. Once they had completed the course with each pistol, they could shoot either again, however they wanted. Once they were through shooting, they were required to complete a survey where they assessed various qualities of each pistol on a 1-5 scale. They had the opportunity to put any comments that they wanted the command staff to be aware of on the survey, then they chose one over the other. Of nearly 600 shooters, there were 200 more votes for the 320 than the Glock.

Each weapon was fired approximately 13,000 rounds during the testing process. We experienced no major malfunctions that weren't shooter induced. Towards the end of the test, magazines would occasionally fail to lock back. We cleaned and lubricated the pistols after 5 days of shooting, which was four times during the test process. We did not entertain changing calibers until after the handgun trial was completed. I obtained the FBI ballistics test CD from the FBI (available to law enforcement agencies through the FBI's Ballistic Research Unit) and saw that there's no difference in penetration between the most modern 9mm loads (Gold Dot G2, Hornady Critical Defense, the new Winchester) and the .357 Sig rounds on the market. We replicated the FBI testing protocol with ballistic gelatin and a variety of mediums and consistently achieved results that mirrored the FBI results. We tested Gold Dot G2 and Hornady Critical Defense.

Upon establishing that either caliber would consistently penetrate 12-15" through a variety of mediums, I calculated the cost of ammunition using the Florida state contract ammunition prices for 9mm, .357 Sig, and .45. Going with 9mm saves us over $33,000 for the same amount of rounds in .357 Sig. My understanding is that we will be able to purchase some more ammunition with some of the savings, while the rest will be used to defray the cost of replacement holsters. We will be ordering the pistols within the week and expect a delivery time for the first batch of 90 days. As we have to train everyone on the new pistols, we will be rolling them out in batches.

Good info. Sounds like a decent testing process. Thanks K.O.A.M. Be Safe!!

Since I was in charge of the testing process, I wanted it to be thorough, address the potential uses, and be transparent. If I could have, I would have had the new caliber before the testing process and tested the pistols in that caliber.

We also made very sure as range staff that we did not indicate which pistol we preferred as a group or as an individual until after the process was complete. We did not want there to be accusations that we had somehow tried to influence the process. The range staff was unanimous that the 320 was a better fit for the agency because of the modular capability.

quote:

I obtained the FBI ballistics test CD from the FBI (available to law enforcement agencies through the FBI's Ballistic Research Unit) and saw that there's no difference in penetration between the most modern 9mm loads (Gold Dot G2, Hornady Critical Defense, the new Winchester) and the .357 Sig rounds on the market.

What weight bullet are you using for duty? So far as the caliber comparison, did it work out that the same weight bullet in the 9mm matched the performance of the same weight bullet in the 357?

This place is wild.
Someone asks about a firearms change for a specific department out of thousands in the country and the person in charge of overseeing that specific change is a member here.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
This place is wild.
Someone asks about a firearms change for a specific department out of thousands in the country and the person in charge of overseeing that specific change is a member here.

Sigforum - Where our knowledge base is deep, and our tendrils' reach wide.

quote:

Originally posted by K.O.A.M.:


Each weapon was fired approximately 13,000 rounds during the testing process. We experienced no major malfunctions that weren't shooter induced. Towards the end of the test, magazines would occasionally fail to lock back. We cleaned and lubricated the pistols after 5 days of shooting, which was four times during the test process. We did not entertain changing calibers until after the handgun trial was completed. I obtained the FBI ballistics test CD from the FBI (available to law enforcement agencies through the FBI's Ballistic Research Unit) and saw that there's no difference in penetration between the most modern 9mm loads (Gold Dot G2, Hornady Critical Defense, the new Winchester) and the .357 Sig rounds on the market. We replicated the FBI testing protocol with ballistic gelatin and a variety of mediums and consistently achieved results that mirrored the FBI results. We tested Gold Dot G2 and Hornady Critical Defense.

Upon establishing that either caliber would consistently penetrate 12-15" through a variety of mediums, I calculated the cost of ammunition using the Florida state contract ammunition prices for 9mm, .357 Sig, and .45. Going with 9mm saves us over $33,000 for the same amount of rounds in .357 Sig. My understanding is that we will be able to purchase some more ammunition with some of the savings, while the rest will be used to defray the cost of replacement holsters. We will be ordering the pistols within the week and expect a delivery time for the first batch of 90 days. As we have to train everyone on the new pistols, we will be rolling them out in batches.

K.O.A.M.

So, the migration of caliber is essentially a cost saving measure where the issue of Penetration was the major consideration.
I have some experience with the both calibers, and I keep coming back to the issue of Energy Transfer. With modern bullet designs, and current loadings, the 9MM and the 357 SIG are both geared toward the same penetration performance. The 9MM in the past has had over penetration issues with tissue, which has been overcome with modern bullet designs. The remaining issues of Training (The 9MM is easier to qualify with) and energy transfer (Where the 357 SIG is significantly better in the same medium) are a "Balancing" act when working with a Department budget. Obviously the 9MM is cheaper, and you have a higher qualification score in training.
I am pleased that you did not do the Caliber comparison while doing the Weapon platform comparison. This was a honest comparison.

Static measurements Post Impact are a valuable tool in decisions such as this. However, Energy Impact study (Such as are available from many sources, including U-Tube Videos from Tnoutdoors) show a significant difference in behaviors following the FBI standard of 4 Ply denium in 20 inches of medium The Temporal cavity is larger, and impacted cavity area is larger with the 357 vs 9MM.

Many people discount that it is the Energy Transfer during impact that is the greatest factor of a "Shot Stop". These results are more difficult to replicate in that they need a "Back Stop Scale" as well as the medium at large.

The forth factor (which has emerged over the years) is the downloading of the 357 Sig to the 9MM +P+ area of performance (1360 with a 125 Grain) is still a increase over any +P+ loading IMO, based on manufacturer and independent field tests. And when the Underwood ammunition using the same projectile (125 Grain Speer, or Hornaday 124) the velocity causes far greater impact (1500 FPS vs 1360) with no additional penetration for the same bullet design. The energy transfer, however, is significant.

All in all, you have posted the most honest results of a well thought out selection process, given the criteria you have selected as most important. While my bias is to stick with the 357 Cartridge for the extra edge in energy transfer (Better too much then not enough) I can understand the basis for the decision for your department. Training in the use of multi shot behaviors with the 9MM will probably accomplish the same energy on target that you will desire for your department's needs. Which is a training issue.

All in all, I understand the process. I am from the old school of "One Shot, One Kill" school, so the caliber selection, while logical from a budgetary standpoint, is not what I would have wanted as a outcome.

Thank you for a very valuable contribution in modern weapon thinking for LEO's.

quote:

I have some experience with the both calibers, and I keep coming back to the issue of Energy Transfer.

Double the velocity to get to rifle speeds and then, IMHO, you can talk "energy".
Handguns just don't have the poop when it comes to energy.

What does a "high energy" handgun feel like in your hand? Like getting high fived by an excited 10 yr old.
The amount of energy on one end is the same as the other end. Hanguns wound based **what is hit**. My $0.02, YMMV.

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:

quote:

I have some experience with the both calibers, and I keep coming back to the issue of Energy Transfer.

Double the velocity to get to rifle speeds and then, IMHO, you can talk "energy".
Handguns just don't have the poop when it comes to energy.

What does a "high energy" handgun feel like in your hand? Like getting high fived by an excited 10 yr old.
The amount of energy on one end is the same as the other end. Hanguns wound based **what is hit**. My $0.02, YMMV.

Hmm. Well, The difference between 9MM Speer Gold Dot (374)and Speer 357 Gold DOT (506) is 130 Ft Lbs. That is the difference by dropping a 10 lb hammer onto you at 13 feet. It's just math. Nothing important. And you are right, Handguns need all the FTP of Energy they can get. Hence my comment. (All figures from Speer's web site)

Of course the underwood is a True 1500 FPS cartridge, loaded to the 1994 Specification of the 357 SIG. There the difference is 225 Ft Lbs. (Drop the 10 lb hammer onto you from 20+ feet).

That is the math. High Speed cameras following the shots show a sizable difference in both compression and shock wave in the FBI medium.

The training issue here is 2 9MM shots > 1 357 SIG shot. This is a training/Policy issue. LEO training and policy which is NOT going to be addressed in court.

However, for a CCW Citizen, in Some FLA counties and in Arlington, Alexandria and Falls Church, Prosecutors will ask "Why did you shoot this person 2 times? This is excessive force".
There, if you are involved in a incident, your first shot had better be the only one you need.

I agree, KMitch200, Energy does count. Even in Pistols. 30 to 50% is an important distinction.

quote:

Originally posted by K.O.A.M.:
I obtained the FBI ballistics test CD from the FBI (available to law enforcement agencies through the FBI's Ballistic Research Unit) and saw that there's no difference in penetration between the most modern 9mm loads (Gold Dot G2, Hornady Critical Defense, the new Winchester) and the .357 Sig rounds on the market. We replicated the FBI testing protocol with ballistic gelatin and a variety of mediums and consistently achieved results that mirrored the FBI results. We tested Gold Dot G2 and Hornady Critical Defense.

Definitely could not have said that 20 years ago, correct?

To me, that means the 9mm has evolved quite a bit. But does it also mean that the .357 SIG hasn't evolved?

From my interactions with deputies, it seems like Seminole County doesn't hire based off EO and political agendas like Orange County does. I know a few of the OC and I just wonder how the hell they got hired...

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:

quote:

Originally posted by K.O.A.M.:
I obtained the FBI ballistics test CD from the FBI (available to law enforcement agencies through the FBI's Ballistic Research Unit) and saw that there's no difference in penetration between the most modern 9mm loads (Gold Dot G2, Hornady Critical Defense, the new Winchester) and the .357 Sig rounds on the market. We replicated the FBI testing protocol with ballistic gelatin and a variety of mediums and consistently achieved results that mirrored the FBI results. We tested Gold Dot G2 and Hornady Critical Defense.

Definitely could not have said that 20 years ago, correct?

To me, that means the 9mm has evolved quite a bit. But does it also mean that the .357 SIG hasn't evolved?

From my interactions with deputies, it seems like Seminole County doesn't hire based off EO and political agendas like Orange County does. I know a few of the OC and I just wonder how the hell they got hired...

We went to .357 Sig in 2007 because it was a superior performer to the 9mm loads at the time and we believed that a tapered cartridge would have less issues that the straight-walled .40. In the past 15 years, with GWOT, people are spending money to produce better 9mm loads, largely driven by military and federal LE end users. The .357 Sig has not evolved along similar lines, largely because 9mm is the military caliber and a 9mm pistol will hold more rounds, have less felt recoil, and undergo less wear and tear from shooting than a .357 model. Federal has already switched their .357 Sig production line from full time to part time. Prior to drafting my caliber recommendation, I spoke to program managers at three different major federal law enforcement agencies, all of whom told me without telling me that they were going to 9mm when they were going to replace their pistols. One of these was the pre-eminent user of .357 Sig, whose program manager told me that they had experienced delay in their ammo supply when they had large new agent classes.

As for the Orange County/Seminole County thing. I've trained Orange County's deputies and new recruits at Valencia for thirteen years. They have to hire more, because they're bigger. Until recently, they had big problems with losing people to OPD over pay disparity. While every agency has its share of people who shouldn't be there, I haven't found that Orange County has a proportionally larger number of those people.

quote:

Originally posted by Jjmcd:

quote:

Originally posted by KMitch200:

quote:

I have some experience with the both calibers, and I keep coming back to the issue of Energy Transfer.

Double the velocity to get to rifle speeds and then, IMHO, you can talk "energy".
Handguns just don't have the poop when it comes to energy.

What does a "high energy" handgun feel like in your hand? Like getting high fived by an excited 10 yr old.
The amount of energy on one end is the same as the other end. Hanguns wound based **what is hit**. My $0.02, YMMV.

Hmm. Well, The difference between 9MM Speer Gold Dot (374)and Speer 357 Gold DOT (506) is 130 Ft Lbs. That is the difference by dropping a 10 lb hammer onto you at 13 feet. It's just math. Nothing important. And you are right, Handguns need all the FTP of Energy they can get. Hence my comment. (All figures from Speer's web site)

Of course the underwood is a True 1500 FPS cartridge, loaded to the 1994 Specification of the 357 SIG. There the difference is 225 Ft Lbs. (Drop the 10 lb hammer onto you from 20+ feet).

That is the math. High Speed cameras following the shots show a sizable difference in both compression and shock wave in the FBI medium.

The training issue here is 2 9MM shots > 1 357 SIG shot. This is a training/Policy issue. LEO training and policy which is NOT going to be addressed in court.

However, for a CCW Citizen, in Some FLA counties and in Arlington, Alexandria and Falls Church, Prosecutors will ask "Why did you shoot this person 2 times? This is excessive force".
There, if you are involved in a incident, your first shot had better be the only one you need.

I agree, KMitch200, Energy does count. Even in Pistols. 30 to 50% is an important distinction.

Here is what I can tell you in regards to what is brought up in court in an OIS incident....everything, including department policies, academy training all the way through every FTO you had and any and all training during your career up to the point of the incident.

What I will also argue, is shot placement is key LE or civilian alike, there simply is no magic round and to believe one caliber is better than another for any reason is a dangerous way to think.

How many rounds were fired is always brought up, and the answer is however many it took to stop the threat. With everything on video especially in LE, that is an easy argument to win.

This why in LE, we train for multiple shots, one stop shots are for the movies.

Now as far as pistols, yes they are a compromise, as rifle rounds are almost always more reliable and consistent with regards to stopping power.

One stop shots, from pistols, IE CNS hits quite often are the result of luck, or having a skill set that was built from training under extreme stress.

In those cases, caliber has very little to do with the outcome.

While I do appreciate the FBI test protocols, as our FA instructor, I am far more concerned with researching real world encounters and the data associated with them, bullet type, caliber, situation, physical and mental conditions, etc.

TXPO

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:

Definitely could not have said that 20 years ago, correct?

To me, that means the 9mm has evolved quite a bit. But does it also mean that the .357 SIG hasn't evolved?

I think that the issue is that Bullet design for the 9MM has evolved, and the velocity for the 357 SIG has Devolved. The bullet diameter is essentially the same (.355) and here are some differences in the bullet design that allow the 9MM +P+ to have greater expansion then it has had in the past. This is a combination of metallurgy. The key element for the 9MM was over penetration control. stopping at the 15 inch mark is important. Energy transfer is important. Accuracy is important. So research has improved.

On the 357 Sig, reduction of velocity to be 9MM + 30 % is a decision of manufacture. I wish that they had not done it. But it was needed to allow some departments (Including the Air Marshals) to have greater control. The US Secret Service had the same issues. Getting better qualification scores trumps threat resolution every time.