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quote:
For self defense purposes why would you want to zero at 25 yards

If you zero at 25 then the bullet trajectory is +_ 1" from 0-50. Which for all practical purposes is the usable range of the 9mm cartridge.
Other zeros have much bigger divergence like a 7y zero will have a variation of +_ 3 inches over that range.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9710 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
quote:
For self defense purposes why would you want to zero at 25 yards

If you zero at 25 then the bullet trajectory is +_ 1" from 0-50. Which for all practical purposes is the usable range of the 9mm cartridge.
Other zeros have much bigger divergence like a 7y zero will have a variation of +_ 3 inches over that range.


Okay, but I am thinking that zeroing at 10 yards would be a happy median since I doubt that you could claim self defense at 50 yards. Maybe you could but it would be highly unlikely.
 
Posts: 5954 | Location: Northwest Indiana | Registered: August 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie:
Okay, but I am thinking that zeroing at 10 yards would be a happy median since I doubt that you could claim self defense at 50 yards. Maybe you could but it would be highly unlikely.


It's possible, but this thread is about Law Enforcement, which have different scenarios than the typical CCW carrier.
 
Posts: 6876 | Location: CA | Registered: April 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Nismo:
quote:
Originally posted by Ogie:
Okay, but I am thinking that zeroing at 10 yards would be a happy median since I doubt that you could claim self defense at 50 yards. Maybe you could but it would be highly unlikely.


It's possible, but this thread is about Law Enforcement, which have different scenarios than the typical CCW carrier.


Fair point!
 
Posts: 5954 | Location: Northwest Indiana | Registered: August 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by YVK:
quote:
Originally posted by DaBigBR:
We've got a good cross-section of who does what, not much why here...

Why are you guys using the distance you do?


I use 25 yards because at 10 and with the dot my groups are so small and centered that there's not enough dispersion to say how close or far I am away from a true POA/POI. Groups opening up at 25 provide me with a better readable feedback in regards to where in relationship to the center I am hitting.
If I was an OCD, Id probably do at 15 and then use a ballistic calculator to see where my loads intersect with zero again, which probably will be around 35 - 40. But 25 has worked well enough.


That's a decent answer and the kind I think people are looking for. I can generally shoot good groups at 25 and agree that you get a little more data than you do at 10.
 
Posts: 4163 | Location: Iowa | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I need to dig up my class notes. We went to a red dot instructor class back in February.
IIRC, we zeroed at 10 yards then confirmed and fine tuned at 25 yards. At 25 yards we all did 8 ring or better on a B8 target.

And this was before I got glasses to correct my astigmatism and nearsightedness.



Not minority enough!
 
Posts: 7212 | Location: Cleveland, OH | Registered: August 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Ogie:
I'm confused. For self defense purposes why would you want to zero at 25 yards? Wouldn't it be safer to zero at 10 yards, or even 7 yards?


A fair question. The reasons for 25 yard zero have less to do with the various self defense scenarios and more to do with the nature of trajectory and ballistics. A 25 yard zero will give you a trajectory that doesn't dip below an inch under line of sight up until that 25 yard line. So, if you are shooting someone at 2 yards, your bullets may impact, at most, an inch below your point of aim. Which, in a self defense shooting, will very likely be negligible and the expression of unrealistic expectations of both one's skill and the dynamics of the moment. I prefer my zero to be as practical as possible.


Ignem Feram
 
Posts: 434 | Registered: October 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Ogie:
I'm confused. For self defense purposes why would you want to zero at 25 yards? Wouldn't it be safer to zero at 10 yards, or even 7 yards?

Zeroing at shorter distances will often feed into self deception...because the shooter will not hold themselves to a realistic standard.

At 7 yards,even at 10 yards, your shots should be right on top of each other. I'm not talking about into an X-zone or a fist sized group. I'm not talking about taking a second between shots either, but pressing off your shot as soon as the sights return.

You can easily zero at 10 yards and be way off at 25 yards. 25 yards isn't as far as many believe, it is 20 yards from my kitchen to my front door




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 13717 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Excellent answers by both mlazarus and 9mmepiphany! Although one on top of the other at 10 yards unsupported is beyond my skill level partially due to physical issues. Also, being way off at 25 yards is not important to me because I am extremely unlikely to have to defend myself at that distance.
 
Posts: 5954 | Location: Northwest Indiana | Registered: August 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I went with 15 yards for my own RDS (no agency requirement) based on my job and actual use. Patrol may require a further zero, detectives perhaps a closer one.
I hope I never need to use it.
 
Posts: 196 | Location: Pa | Registered: September 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by josp:
I went with 15 yards for my own RDS (no agency requirement) based on my job and actual use. Patrol may require a further zero, detectives perhaps a closer one.

When I worked in the Courthouse and the Airport, I advocated for more concentration at longer distances.

I wanted to work in some drills for making hits at 50 yards




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 13717 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by DaBigBR:
I was a 25 yard guy for several years. I took Scott Jedlinski's class where he pushes a 10 yard zero from a standing, offhand position and then confirm and fine-tune at 25.

I'm a convert.

The difference in point of impact between the two (shooting your 10 yard zero at 25 or your 25 yard zero at 10) is less than 3/4". The average shooter lacks the discipline, focus, and skills to zero the gun at 25 yards in anything resembling a reasonable amount of time. Zeroing off of a rest, while good for steadying the gun puts input in to it (or takes it out) that does not exist in normal, standing shooting.

When you're introducing a new crop of people to a red dot handgun, trying to get a 25 yard zero dialed in can be a good way to burn a lot of ammo and time and hurt shooter confidence when they find out the dot alone doesn't make them an ultra whiz bang one hole pistol sniper.

I do a fair amount of B8 shooting with RDS guns and I have seen no difference in performance between the two zero distances, so long as you understand the offsets and whether or not they matter to you. Scott says that is you're a good shooter, your zero doesn't matter and if you're not a good shooter, your zero doesn't matter. I think he's on to something.

Good video from YouTube channel 1911 Syndicate showing part of the zeroing process from the Modern Samurai class:
https://youtu.be/mudA-PZ_OiA

I zeroed my new red dot at 25 yards in two shots. First shot was 10" high, a bit left. I walked down and put a second orange target spot over the hole. Next, hold the gun so it don't move, aiming at the original target spot, and adjust the dot to hit the second target spot. You are now very close to zero, can fine tune. The farther zero distance will make the adjustments move more, so your not giving it 15 clicks to move POI 1.5" Zeroing unsupported is a waste of ammo in my opinion. I want to know the pistols mechanical zero, so if it shoots off unsupported, I know its me, not the pistol.
 
Posts: 373 | Location: Michigan | Registered: November 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I zeroed my new red dot at 25 yards in two shots

Since we are talking duty guns here the raw accuracy at 25y is probably in the range of 2-3" depending a bit on gun, barrel and ammo. And the RDS with a typical dot of 3-6 moa is another 1-2" in just dot size (which can be managed somewhat in target type used). So that single second shot could be 3-5" from a decent zero. Unless of course you meant the "fine tune" part was to actually shoot groups of rounds which is how zeroing is typically done to manage that variability. I'm unclear what you mean about clicks as the adjustments are in MOA.
I happen to agree with you that not doing this from a rest certainly has the potential to waste a bunch of ammo.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9710 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes, I had to shoot groups to fine tune. My dot has 1moa adjustments, 1 click= 1 moa
 
Posts: 373 | Location: Michigan | Registered: November 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My point on adjustments is that zeroing distance does not affect the number of clicks. its angular.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9710 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by hrcjon:
My point on adjustments is that zeroing distance does not affect the number of clicks. its angular.

Sure distance matters. 4 clicks= 1” at 25yards, 10 clicks = 1” at 10yards. It’s faster to dial in a group at 25, plus you get to see the error better. You are right on the angle
 
Posts: 373 | Location: Michigan | Registered: November 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The same angular error takes the same number of clicks adjustment no matter the distance. Its not faster. Your comparison on clicks is a false flag. A 1" error at 25y would be a .4" error at 10 and need the same 4 clicks. And the exact reverse for your example at 10. For sure finding the small errors at close distance is way harder than at reasonable ranges.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9710 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by hrcjon:
The same angular error takes the same number of clicks adjustment no matter the distance. Its not faster. Your comparison on clicks is a false flag. A 1" error at 25y would be a .4" error at 10 and need the same 4 clicks. And the exact reverse for your example at 10. For sure finding the small errors at close distance is way harder than at reasonable ranges.

I understand MOA, we are both correct in our math. Glad you agree that it’s easier at 25Wink If you get it very close with 2 shots, you are saving ammo, with minor adjusting for groups. Just trying to get it sighted with the least amount of ammo.
 
Posts: 373 | Location: Michigan | Registered: November 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My point in all this is, you can get a very close rough zero with 2 shots, at 25 yards. The trick is to hold the gun very still while adjusting the dot over to the first shot hole. If you start at 10 yards off hand, and adjust the sight for 4" of error, you will more then likely use a lot more than 2 rounds, just to get as close as my rested 25 yard method does with 2 shots. At 10 yards, 4" would be 40 clicks, and unless the shooter does the math, he will probably give it 8-10 clicks and shoot again to only have moved POI 1" It's all good, in the end the gun will be zeroed.
 
Posts: 373 | Location: Michigan | Registered: November 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I use mostly Shield sights. I used to set mine at
25 feet due to I'm figuring most SD shots (been there_
are at very close range. Shield advised 17 meters stating that will due well for close shots and it'll handle longer range shots too.
Tried it and on ten inch steel gong targets (represent mass)
does work out.
When not shooting at the gong targets my nephew and me shoot at yellow ( cheap at Walmart) tennis balls out on our desert.
I like Shield sights because they are designed from the start for pistols. You choose between double stack pistols and single stack pistols.
I have Sig's Romeo 1 on my P320.
My XL has the Shield RMSc. ( My usual EDC )
For out on the desert or up in the Santa Rita (bears, Mountain Lions and occasional jaguar up there__ my P229 or
P226 with Buffalo Bore bear loads.
 
Posts: 380 | Location: Green Valley, Arizona | Registered: May 01, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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