(Pardon the wordiness of what follows.)
Well, so much for the notion that Sig's 365 magazines are so innovative that they are patentable.
The Hellcat after a year or so, then Shield Arms (do they count?), now S&W and Ruger.
Am I the only one who doesn't understand how all of a sudden magazines could get so small?
I compare 13 round magazines for my HiPower and Sig 228, then look at my 365 12 rounders and photos from the Hellcat, Shield Plus, and Ruger Max. How DO they do that?
I know some of it is that polymer pistols don't have separate grips, and that these new designs apparently use thinner followers and mag wells. I recall Hickok 45 marveling at 365 magazines and wondering if the springs are different and might not hold up, but they sure seem to.
It SEEMS that all of a sudden it isn't hard to make magazines smaller. Is anybody else surprised by all of that?
WHAT else is being done differently that allows the size reduction?
And why didn't manufacturers and tinkerers figure it out sooner? (Maybe they did somewhat -- eg CZ PCR mags are now 15 vs 14, HiPowers can be 14 vs 13, etc. But those don't seem as large increases.)
And what is next?
Is this phenomenon limited to these little pistols?
Will more standard size magazines increase in capacity?
Will these little magazines actually develop problems after being loaded for many years?
Will Glock change to metal magazines? (No.) Will they make a G43XShort with higher capacity?
I find these innovations fascinating. Don't misunderstand, for my money, 365's are more remarkable for their accuracy and reliability than their capacity. And certainly capacity increases are not anywhere as significant as the amazing improvement in reliability in auto pistols of 1980 vs now, but it is all definitely interesting.

I'm waiting on the rumored new 10-round Shield magazines for the standard G43.

Sometimes innovation and its intended effect, to grab more market share, is not a risk the bean counters are willing to take. Yes, those that do (SIG with the P365) are rewarded handsomely, but some companies would rather reverse engineer a “me too” product once they determine the buyers are there.

I would argue that it is the explosion of concealed carry and the very different needs/desires of that market vs. more professional users or home defense users.

Mag capacity in a professional regard really hasn’t been inadequate in any way for a very long time. I would argue the 13 round hipower was and still is a perfectly reasonable and adequate magazine capacity for any real world pistol defensive needs. Move to 15 or 17 rounds and honestly you have plenty of ammo on board. So with that in mind there is no real drive to add a couple more rounds to an already adequate supply.

Professional and HD users also likely do not need nor want the smallest package possible in all but the rarest circumstances so there is no real drive here to make a gun smaller then a P228/G19/PCR etc. and in fact going smaller is likely more detriment then benefit.

Now we enter the CCW market. This is a market that wants the smallest package possible with an adequate number of rounds. They buy guns, they buy the newest thing and they are actually served by itty bitty guns and more ammo here is typically a good thing if possible. So the market is there for the innovation and production.

Now I, personally, am of the kind that once guns pass a certain size threshold they become difficult to employ. I personally think the P365 is at or below that threshold (for me personally). That said the market is there and the product void will be filled.

So long story short non professional carry has driven these innovations IMO.


Without the 94 AWB, and explosion in CCW do you think the Glock 26/27 etc. would exist? I would say no.
Chris

quote:

Originally posted by ScotP7:
How DO they do that?

Tardis technology. Doctor Who's patent expired.

cslinger nailed it. I was actually surprised to read that anything about the 365 mag is worthy of a patent. Maybe I read that wrong.

I also think that everything in subcompacts come with a price. As things shrink the window of reliability shrinks as well. Tinier it gets the more everything has to work just right as tolerance windows shrink.

Could you add a couple rounds to a full-size mag? Probably but it might come with the cost of slightly less flexibility in tolerances. Is it worth it when you already have 15+1? Maybe to some.

I think it is pretty cool. I carry a Hellcat with 14 rds in it, it works 100%. That is what my Hi-Power carried back in the 70s.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by ScotP7:
How DO they do that?

Tardis technology. Doctor Who's patent expired.

Love it.

If you look at a P365 receiver closely you will realize that it is nearly 100% MIM. Manufacturing advancements have allowed more complex part shapes in smaller sizes to make such mico pistols economical. The trick with the P365 magazine is the narrowing to single stack at the top to allow more clearance for the trigger bar. Add that to a minimal polymer frame that is barely bigger than the magazine and you have a micro pistol with 10+ rounds. Sig may have patented their design, but clearly SA and now SW and Ruger have found a way around it. Competition is good, now the focus will be on reliability...

I'd like a flush fit factory G19 mag that holds 30+ rounds.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
Sig may have patented their design, but clearly SA and now SW and Ruger have found a way around it.

I looked up and posted a link before to SIG's patent for their P365 magazine. Their patent is a Design patent, as opposed to a Utility patent. A Utility patent is much more difficult to acquire and provides more protection against patent infringement.

A Design patent pretty much only protects against someone copying the look of your product, so unless a competitor's mag looks so much like the P365 that a court would be convinced that they could hardly tell them apart, then there's no patent infringment.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
If you look at a P365 receiver closely you will realize that it is nearly 100% MIM. Manufacturing advancements have allowed more complex part shapes in smaller sizes to make such mico pistols economical. The trick with the P365 magazine is the narrowing to single stack at the top to allow more clearance for the trigger bar. Add that to a minimal polymer frame that is barely bigger than the magazine and you have a micro pistol with 10+ rounds. Sig may have patented their design, but clearly SA and now SW and Ruger have found a way around it. Competition is good, now the focus will be on reliability...

Thank you. That is a very good and helpful explanation for this person who has never been good at three dimensional imagination.
It seems to explain the girth aspect, but what about the top to bottom dimensions? It still seems to me that, below the single feeding portion, there are a lot of rows of double stacked rounds, more than you seem to get in traditional double stack magazines. Am I right on that?

As a person with multiple patents, it doesn't look patentable. However, the copiers likely don't understand the engineering details unless they put in a lot of work. Doubtful.

In my opinion, what's going to bite you in the a** is a FTF/jam, etc. A second guns for me in most cases. Mostly a duplicate. Solves capacity and reliability issues.

quote:

Originally posted by SIG228:
I'd like a flush fit factory G19 mag that holds 30+ rounds.

Of .22LR, maybe ...

So, a recent interest has become watches. I was reading on a watch forum about how mainsprings have, fairly recently, improved significantly.

I wonder if the technology also helps magazine springs.

I just bought some 18rd Mecgar mags for my 226, the base plate is Poly, but does not stick out that far. Still looks good in the gun

People seem to forget or do not know that the original microcompact high capacity 9mm is the Keltec P11, that can hold 10+1 and 12+1 depending on which Mecgar magazine you can get. They also had a factory extension that you can make it 13+1. God Bless !!!

quote:

Originally posted by VBVAGUY:
People seem to forget or do not know that the original microcompact high capacity 9mm is the Keltec P11, that can hold 10+1 and 12+1 depending on which Mecgar magazine you can get. They also had a factory extension that you can make it 13+1. God Bless !!!

I’ve been pulling the trigger on one since ‘04 still hasn’t fired. Should break soon though. .

Very true though the P11 was one of the very few Keltecs I almost liked.

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

quote:

Originally posted by VBVAGUY:
People seem to forget or do not know that the original microcompact high capacity 9mm is the Keltec P11, that can hold 10+1 and 12+1 depending on which Mecgar magazine you can get. They also had a factory extension that you can make it 13+1. God Bless !!!

I’ve been pulling the trigger on one since ‘04 still hasn’t fired. Should break soon though. .

Very true though the P11 was one of the very few Keltecs I almost liked.

You practice with that Keltrec P11 trigger and guaranteed that any handgun you pickup, you will be a master of !!! God Bless !!!

quote:

Originally posted by VBVAGUY:
People seem to forget or do not know that the original microcompact high capacity 9mm is the Keltec P11, that can hold 10+1 and 12+1 depending on which Mecgar magazine you can get. They also had a factory extension that you can make it 13+1. God Bless !!!

It's true. Keltec was way way ahead of it's time with that. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, it had a trigger only a NYC gun-control advocate could love.