As said above, although I don't have a suppressed home defense firearm it would be WAY far down on my list of "Oh Shits" to think about if I ever had to discharge a weapon in anger even assuming I am 100% in the right legally and morally there will still be a shit show of some kind and use of a suppressor will be real far down on the list of what I would be worried about.

Now from a more practical point of view. I am one of those "I want the whole neighborhood to know shots were fired and everybody calling the cops" I realize not everybody knows what shots fired sounds like but all it takes is bunch of noise complaints to get a drive by at least.

quote:

Originally posted by jdshank:
Please forgive me for what might be a dumb question? If the SHTF in the middle of the night and your heart rate is off the chart will you even hear gunfire?

I was once in an unfortunate situation where 47 rounds (29 of which were 5.56) were fired in a semi-enclosed area. I didn’t hear anyone else firing and the only way I knew my rifle was firing was the feel of the buffer spring sproinging under my cheek. 10 years later I still have significant tinnitus from the event.

Just because your brain doesn’t process it doesn’t mean the shock isn’t frying your ears. If it was my call all our rifles would run suppressors. I keep a set of electronic ear pro hanging off my rifle at home. If I’ve got time to grab the rifle, I hope to have time to throw on the ears. I don’t need any more damage.

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:

quote:

Originally posted by jdshank:
Please forgive me for what might be a dumb question? If the SHTF in the middle of the night and your heart rate is off the chart will you even hear gunfire?

Mentally, one might not seem to hear the shot due to a phenomenon known as "auditory exclusion," but the physical effect on your ears is still the same. However, the report of a suppressed round, especially if supersonic (there is no way to mask the sonic boom), isn't like TV and movies where they go "piff piff." It is actually still fairly loud, just not quite as loud.

I use 147gr sub Sonic! So no issues with that.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Prefontaine:

A legally owned can, in the grand scheme, is the least of my concerns.

Yep. Exactly this.

Agreed which is why I stated I put 0 value in the “evidence locker/angry jury argument” it’s not a factor in my decision at all. I only care about tactical advantage or the risk of permanent hearing issues.

It’s an interesting discussion.

Yeah ive got tinnitus. i keep telling myself that apparently you only lose the frequency you hear so soon i wont need ears.

On a serious note, i have electronic muffs on my rifle at home. If its faster than that and i have to run my pistol so be it. A serious question, how many of you think your neightbors would actually call? Ive been to a few shootings that were audible but everyone was too busy minding their own business and the involved or a store owner called.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Anubismp,

quote:

Originally posted by egregore:

quote:

Originally posted by jdshank:
Please forgive me for what might be a dumb question? If the SHTF in the middle of the night and your heart rate is off the chart will you even hear gunfire?

Mentally, one might not seem to hear the shot due to a phenomenon known as "auditory exclusion," but the physical effect on your ears is still the same. However, the report of a suppressed round, especially if supersonic (there is no way to mask the sonic boom), isn't like TV and movies where they go "piff piff." It is actually still fairly loud, just not quite as loud.

I use 147gr sub Sonic! So no issues with that.

quote:

Originally posted by Amurr:
I use 147gr sub Sonic! So no issues with that.

Have you fired a suppressed pistol in an enclosed space, and with no hearing protection? It sounds as if you have not. You should try it.

I wouldn't use a suppressor on a home defense pistol. You're opening yourself up to issues if a civil suit comes your way from someone you shot.

Sometimes I wonder about how people read things into a statement that weren't there.

I said "after shooting/killing a perp", the goals are to avoid criminal, civil, and civil rights liability.

I did not say the goal was to shoot the perp in the first place. Of course, always avoid having to use deadly force - alarm system, dog, high power flashlight, etc. The only time you draw and point a gun at anyone is after you already have justification to use deadly force. In Indiana that means breaching an occupied domicile - actually entering, not standing on your property, or at your front door making noise or rattling the doorknob. As long as they stay outside, you call the police and wait.

Given the events of the last year, where police making good shoots under stress are vilified, fired, and prosecuted (Atlanta, Kenosha, Indianapolis, Louisville), where the St. Louis couple is criminally charged for defending their home from violent trespassers, where Kyle Rittenhouse is charged with murder when he was clearly acting in self defense, where Derek Chauvin is convicted of murder and he and his fellow officers are charged with federal civil rights violations even though ZERO evidence was presented at trail that race had anything to do with their actions, do you think you are immune from this insanity? I can go on, but we all know every one of these stories.

Live in a conservative county with conservative sheriff and prosecutor? Yes you will probably be fine with any lawfully possessed arm, used within the applicable self defense laws.

If you live in an area with an activist D.A. then all bets are off. In the past, stories about prosecutors using the type of arm or type of ammo to impugn lawful self defense were written off as urban legends. There was the 10mm case where the power of the round was used against the shooter (he carried it for wild animal defense).

But now? Any major city where BLM and Antifa riots were allowed to occur, and the perps were let go with no bail and now have most of the charges dropped is not going to be your friend. Neither is the BATFE under the current administration.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by Amurr:
I use 147gr sub Sonic! So no issues with that.

Have you fired a suppressed pistol in an enclosed space, and with no hearing protection? It sounds as if you have not. You should try it.

I wouldn't use a suppressor on a home defense pistol. You're opening yourself up to issues if a civil suit comes your way from someone you shot.

Honestly I have nothing. How would one do that? I guess if you shoot one at an indoor range with the walls between stalls it’s pretty close.

The only suppressed round that's so much lower that it makes a big difference is a 22 sub-sonic.
In my potential self-defense situation, I'd much prefer an effective round which means not a sub-sonic to stop someone in the most efficient manner.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
The only suppressed round that's so much lower that it makes a big difference is a 22 sub-sonic.
In my potential self-defense situation, I'd much prefer an effective round which means not a sub-sonic to stop someone in the most efficient manner.

Federal 147gr HST is a externally effective subsonic 9mm round no?

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
Sometimes I wonder about how people read things into a statement that weren't there.

I said "after shooting/killing a perp", the goals are to avoid criminal, civil, and civil rights liability.

I know, right.

It’s almost like when the OP writes in his original Post that he doesn’t care about your subject matter, but yet you continue to write paragraphs on it despite the fact that the OP has even since then stated he still doesn’t care.

We get it, you’re going to use a Hipoint with ball ammo as to appear to be Mr Friendly to a jury if you survive.

Can we move on to what the OP actually wants to know?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
Sometimes I wonder about how people read things into a statement that weren't there.

I said "after shooting/killing a perp", the goals are to avoid criminal, civil, and civil rights liability.

I know, right.

It’s almost like when the OP writes in his original Post that he doesn’t care about your subject matter, but yet you continue to write paragraphs on it despite the fact that the OP has even since then stated he still doesn’t care.

We get it, you’re going to use a Hipoint with ball ammo as to appear to be Mr Friendly to a jury if you survive.

Can we move on to what the OP actually wants to know?

And talk about avoiding a federal civil rights beef for shooting somebody in your private residence. Seems like a review of 18USC1983 is in order.

quote:

Originally posted by Amurr:
How would one do that? I guess if you shoot one at an indoor range with the walls between stalls it’s pretty close.

An indoor range is actually pretty open. I can tell you that in a 10x12 foot room with an 8 foot ceiling and two open doorways, it's very loud. Even without their revolvers with coinroll-sized silencers, Hollywood has misreprented firearm suppression. The term is "Hollywood quiet" and for the most part, it's a myth.

On top of that, a suppressor will about double the length of your handgun- a nice big tube for the BG to grab onto, likely causing the pistol to go out of battery and not fire at a pull of the trigger. And for anyone who says "You shouldn't let them get that close"- no, you shouldn't, but it can happen.

It's enough to have your pistol confiscated during an investigation, but taking a controlled item like a silencer- hoo boy.

All of it- including the possible implications in a civil suit- adds up to save the silencer for the range or for when the world goes completely to shit.

BTW, I said "Hollywood quiet" is a myth for the most part, because I have witnessed the firing of a few suppressed rifles which were quieter than Hollywood quiet. The most impressive was a bolt action rifle chambered in .223 and modified by Jonathan Arthur Ciener. All you heard was the click of the striker and the crack of the bullet heading downrange. If I hadn't witnessed it myself, I wouldn't believe it.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by Amurr:
How would one do that? I guess if you shoot one at an indoor range with the walls between stalls it’s pretty close.

An indoor range is actually pretty open. I can tell you that in a 10x12 foot room with an 8 foot ceiling and two open doorways, it's very loud. Even without their revolvers with coinroll-sized silencers, Hollywood has misreprented firearm suppression. The term is "Hollywood quiet" and for the most part, it's a myth.

On top of that, a suppressor will about double the length of your handgun- a nice big tube for the BG to grab onto, likely causing the pistol to go out of battery and not fire at a pull of the trigger. And for anyone who says "You shouldn't let them get that close"- no, you shouldn't, but it can happen.

It's enough to have your pistol confiscated during an investigation, but taking a controlled item like a silencer- hoo boy.

All of it- including the possible implications in a civil suit- adds up to save the silencer for the range or for when the world goes completely to shit.

BTW, I said "Hollywood quiet" is a myth for the most part, because I have witnessed the firing of a few suppressed rifles which were quieter than Hollywood quiet. The most impressive was a bolt action rifle chambered in .223 and modified by Jonathan Arthur Ciener. All you heard was the click of the striker and the crack of the bullet heading downrange. If I hadn't witnessed it myself, I wouldn't believe it.

This. Sub sonic 9 with a good can and wire pulling gel will be pretty quiet, but who cares?

If youve ever tried to shoot someone, in the dark, under stress, who is moving, it isnt super easy. Its harder with a pistol than it is a rifle.

I dunno. Its america, get a suppressor if you want one. There’s no rationalizing required. But since you have the ability to plan, plan to use a rifle not a pistol. Ive shot people with both, and really prefer the rifle if it has to be done. My home defense plan is to grab my rifle, get my kids into the master br where i can hard point, and see what the dog thinks. If the dog thinks someone is in the house, im calling the cops and letting them clear the house. Everything inside is insured except the civil suit that comes from shooting someone anyway. Im not dealing with years of legal shit over material shit that can be replaced in a couple weeks by the insurance company anyway.

$.02

Unless packed (or wet) the first shot out of a can is pretty loud. Inside a confined space, even louder.

I would use a suppressor on a home defense rifle - probably not a pistol. I have fired 147 subs out of a suppressed 220 indoors and it still creates some notable noise. I have also fired some 215g subs out of my .300 9" rifle indoors and it was relatively quiet compared to the .45 pistol. (still makes enough noise to hear it in other rooms/floors)

During the 2002 Olympics I was patrolling the roads near an an olympic venue. It was dark and I saw a vehicle stopped on the side of the road. The glass was covered in snow and the interior light was on. I could see someone moving in the drivers seat. As I approached the vehicle on the drivers side a loud shot went off. The driver ended up being suicidal. He was quite successful. He used a rifle and fired a 30.06 round with his toe. The round went through his head missing and then the car's roof. The round missed me by a foot or two when the bullet ripped through his car roof and went just over my head. Yeah I heard that round too. No auditory exclusion. I was stunned but managed to get to my feet and draw my Glock. I heard this round and saw it but I managed to react.

I went to do our pistol qual 10 years back and i forgot my ear pro at our PD range. I jammed some foamies in and away I went. While moving to a shooting position on the night shoot portion one of the foamies slipped out of my ear as I fired at the target when it turned. I was next to a wall and the sound was so loud I literally saw stars for five or ten seconds. I was basically blind. I couldn't see the target, my gun, nothing.

I investigated homicides and shootings and some people report they didn't hear the round. I ain't one of them. The indoor shoot where i was blinded made me decide on putting suppressors on all of my bedside guns.

You could practice by suppressing that giant ass avatar first.

Auditory exclusion has been reported countless times and therefore it’s reasonable to believe it’s a genuine phenomenon, but I’ve never seen it reported except in extremely high stress situations when the individual is intensely focused on dealing with a deadly threat. That’s far different than shooting at a range or when a gunshot occurs unexpectedly, such as when a partner has an unintentional discharge. We can’t, therefore, draw any conclusions about auditory exclusion in other situations.

On the other hand, and I’m no audiologist, but until an expert contradicts me I will believe that hearing damage due to loud noise is a physical process that occurs regardless of whether the individual is aware of it for some reason.

All that being said, however, I cannot but strongly question the idea that hearing damage is worse than, or just as bad as being maimed or killed.
Really‽
Do you have any true understanding of what living the rest of your life in a wheelchair or in bed as a quadriplegic would be like? How about being disabled and seeing and hearing your wife being raped and then murdered and then being set on fire yourself? (Yes, such things have actually happened.)
I have experienced persistent tinnitus for over 50 years and wish I didn’t have it and that my hearing was normal. If I were to fire my 357 SIG P320 indoors without protection, I’m pretty sure that my hearing would get even worse. But would I do that if necessary to protect me and my wife? Without hesitation.

And without hesitation is what’s more often than not necessary to win a defensive fight. If we research the matter, especially through the many Internet videos available these days, the one thing that most of them demonstrate is how fast such incidents develop. If I hear a suspicious noise in the house I need to investigate, I’ll put on hearing protection, but if someone breaks through the door without warning, I’ll be happy if the few seconds I have to react will permit me to grab a gun and defend myself. Anything that may delay my action such as, “Oh, this might be loud!” could be fatal to the wrong person.

If someone can handle a pistol as quickly and shoot as accurately and control it as well in a close encounter with a suppressor attached as without, great. I have no reason to believe that I could do any of those things and therefore have never even considered putting a suppressor on a close quarters defensive weapon.