quote:

The HK P7 is striker-fired, and has a grip safety

Yet when the NJ State Police first introduced them as their duty handgun, there were a number of accidental discharges.

Most of the issues I see at IDPA and USPSA events is with the single stack with a grip safety.


I've been carrying professionally and personally since 1975. Never carried a handgun that required a manual safety except a year or two with a 1911.

Never had an issue. It someone feels the need, buy a version with the features they desire. Quite simple.

As far as purse carry, it's quite safe and possible...if they person buys a purse suited for the purpose. As part of the NRA PP Outside the home we were required to shoot a course using one. Hated it but in some cases, that's the sole option. the fact it's not carried on the person at all times is my concern.

quote:

Originally posted by Compactsig:
The trend seems to be towards smaller, lighter pocket striker fired pistols that have trigger pulls some of which are as light as a 1911. Over the many I've shot 1911s I've heard almost no one recommend carrying them without a thumb safety (and if some fool did others immediately tried to educate them about safe gun practices). Today the gun-makers have been working had to market light trigger pull striker fired pistols without thumb safeties as the 'modern', 'safe', 'pro' version. They're selling ego and machismo not safety.

Where's the "Like" button?

quote:

Originally posted by Triggernosis:

quote:

Originally posted by Compactsig:
The trend seems to be towards smaller, lighter pocket striker fired pistols that have trigger pulls some of which are as light as a 1911. Over the many I've shot 1911s I've heard almost no one recommend carrying them without a thumb safety (and if some fool did others immediately tried to educate them about safe gun practices). Today the gun-makers have been working had to market light trigger pull striker fired pistols without thumb safeties as the 'modern', 'safe', 'pro' version. They're selling ego and machismo not safety.

Where's the "Like" button?

Agreed.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:
With proper training, regular practice and the elimination of ingrained poor habits, a safety is a desirable component on a pistol.If you are under the impression that a safety on a pistol will hinder your performance I suggest you get some more training and practice more often.

I carry revolvers, I carry a Glock 26, I carry classic P-Series DA/SA Sigs, and currently my duty weapon is a P320. While I don't consider myself an expert, and hope to learn quite a bit more over the course of my life, I've had a good amount of training, and most of that training has informed my preference for pistols with no manual safety. As to practice...I shoot 400-500 rounds a week when weather permits. More than many, less than some.

I still don't fell the need or even the desire to add a manual safety to any of the pistols I mentioned above. I believe the internal passive safeties are sufficient, I fail to see how adding a switch would make me any safer, and as stated in my previous post, it's one more thing to concern oneself with in a high stress situation.

As my username denotes, I own a 92FS. I don't carry it because the manipulation of the safety is awkward and not fluid with the draw. I also have 1911s. I strongly believe that the design of a 1911 warrants it having a manual safety. I much prefer the mechanics of the 1911 safety to those of the 92FS, but I also find that on rare occasions, my thumbs activate it unintentionally while shooting. Sure I could modify my grip to fix this, but that would mean messing with a grip that serves me well on all my other semi-autos...most notably my duty weapon. As such, I save the 1911s for range fun, and don't carry them as defensive handguns.

I definitely believe that one can train to the point of being able to reliably operate a manual safety under stress. I have no problem with that...and if that's what floats your boat, and you're willing to put the time in to do it, more power to ya! But that's still an additional step that has to take place on the draw, and I still stand by my original statement.

That was my point in posting this. If you do not want a safety and think that they are an hinderance to you, I get that. Good for you. That is your choice. I respect that and would never criticize you for it. But by the same token if someone does, I wouldn't rip them either. I carry a Sig 226 every single day. No safety as you know. But I would not mind if my G19 had one. I think they might be just a little safer when reholstering, especially when I carry it IWB. To each his own.And if Sig does come out with a 365 and a safety I will be first in line to buy one. And I promise you I will not be shot or die from having it.
Edited to add. I agree with your comments on the 92FS. Probably one of the best pistols I ever owned. I sold it because of that slide mounted safety. Then I realized that it was me, not the gun that caused me to activate that safety when reloading. Had I carried that gun and trained with it when I attended the schools that I have, I would probably still own it. There are ways around it.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog7972:
That was my point in posting this. If you do not want a safety and think that they are an hinderance to you, I get that. Good for you. That is your choice. I respect that and would never criticize you for it. But by the same token if someone does, I wouldn't rip them either. I carry a Sig 226 every single day. No safety as you know. But I would not mind if my G19 had one. I think they might be just a little safer when reholstering, especially when I carry it IWB. To each his own.And if Sig does come out with a 365 and a safety I will be first in line to buy one. And I promise you I will not be shot or die from having it.

Exactly, the I’m better trained than you blather, is just blather.
I have the P365, great defense weapon. Would I like it with a small safety?
I would and I will have both

Reviewers say it comes with a 6lb trigger pull. Not the 10lbs of my P220 or P239. Not the 10+lbs of my revolvers. I won't carry a striker-fired, 6lb pistol without a safety. I'll stick with my Ruger SR9C and still have 10+1 and +P. As an old bullseye shooter once told me "Being 99% safe with firearms is a recipe for disaster."

I see the cut out for the safety on my current P365 so I imagine it will be a part we can just purchase and drop in or delete when its released.

Im on the fence for safeties and say it depends on the gun. On a 1911 I'd feel odd not having the thumb safety as its part of my shooting grip. On a P7, I love the grip safety. I dislike the Beretta 92 series slide safeties personally and deleted the M&P shield safety on my Shield.

As always its nice to have options. I look forward to checking out the manual safety upon its release and seeing if its for me.

I have no problem carrying my P320 in a full kydex holster. Same with my P225. However, with a soft-side holster, like a Bugbite, I want a safety - my P938. I also have a soft-side bedside holster for my P226 with light. My thumb is on the hammer as I holster the pistol each night.

Sorry, this is bullshit. I've heard it spouted a lot, but no one has ever offered any valid justification, meaning showing a documented case where a manual safety cause someone's death by preventing them from firing there gun. There are plenty of cases where safeties have kept people from getting killed or injured (usually in gun grab situation.)

So if you know of such a case, put it out there. If not, consider the fact that you're very likely wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:

<snip>

I would never carry a gun with a safety. NEVER. Safeties will get you killed.

<snip>

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
Sorry, this is bullshit. I've heard it spouted a lot, but no one has ever offered any valid justification, meaning showing a documented case where a manual safety cause someone's death by preventing them from firing there gun. There are plenty of cases where safeties have kept people from getting killed or injured (usually in gun grab situation.)

So if you know of such a case, put it out there. If not, consider the fact that you're very likely wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by bubbatime:

<snip>

I would never carry a gun with a safety. NEVER. Safeties will get you killed.

<snip>

I could turn this around. Every ND that I know of that has happened to an individual that I'm personally acquainted with has been a result of poor administrative gun handling. It would have occurred whether the firearm was equipped with a safety or not. It all comes down to keeping you booger hook (and other objects) off the trigger until you're ready to fire.

On the flip side, I've had plenty of experiences, even in the safe controlled environment of the range where I've wanted to fire a gun, tried to pull the trigger, and realized the safety was on. Admittedly, this is the result of a lack of training on that particular platform...but I have a lot of different guns, and I'm only going to be able to develop "muscle memory" for a select few. If this can happen on the range, imagine what could happen in a real-life, high stress situation.

The gun grab is an interesting scenario...but IMO, if the bad guy has gained control of your firearm, you've lost the battle already, safety or no safety. My duty gun is carried in a retention holster...formerly the old leather SS3 and now a safariland ALS. So you could say there is a sort of "safety" inherent to the holster. When we switched to the ALS about a year ago, I took it home and drew my unloaded gun from it 4 or 500 times. My thumb was bleeding by the time I was done. I still regularly practice drawing from it, and have it down to a natural smooth movement. I've had to draw under stress from it multiple times now, and it has come out every time. But it took that repetition and training on that particular platform that I carry every day to get to that point.

I guess what I'm saying is...if you're going to carry and train on one platform and feel confident that a manual safety isn't going to delay or inhibit your ability to bring your weapon into action, then by all means employ one. But if you're regularly switching between platforms with a different manual of arms, or not willing to put in the time to train to the point where that manual safety is naturally disengaged as part of your draw, then it may well be a problem in the heat of the moment.

For this reason, I prefer my carry guns to have as simple a manual of arms as possible. My P320, Glock 26, DA/SA P229...all a little different, but all require the exact same process to bring them into action. And when adhering to safety rules, these platforms are just as safe as any with a manual safety.

Still waiting to handle one of these in person so I can't comment on which I would prefer for the P365.

Looking at the P365 manual, Pg. 47 shows a picture of the manual safety and on Pg. 61 it states, "For manual safety models add 0.5oz to weight", so it appears they will eventually be able to accommodate either choice.

This sounds more reasonable.

Everything is a tradeoff. If you're carrying a gun, you're going to be handling it and range shooting it vastly more than actually shooting it in defensive situations. Yes, I know the reason for carrying it is to have it available to shoot in a defensive situation, but that's going to be a very rare occurrence, if it ever happens. If it isn't a rare occurrence, you probably have to rethink aspects of your lifestyle.

But if you look at it statistically, if you train correctly (see below), the chances of screwing up the use of the safety in a defensive shooting are pretty small. Combined with the small chance of actually having a defensive shooting,the chance of a safety getting you killed in shooting, by preventing you from getting rounds off where necessary, becomes very close to nothing. On the flip side, you're going to be handling the gun a lot. And while a manual safety won't eliminate the chance of a brain fart ND, since two things have to be done wrong (taking the gun off safety than the trigger being pulled inadvertantly), the chances of it happening are significantly reduced. So the combination of a lot of gun handling with a significant reduction in the chance of an ND, means a significant reduction in the chance an ND would harm you or someone else.

The on think I'm COMPLETELY with you on is training. If you carry a guns with a manual safety, you need to wire the use of that completely into your muscle memory. You should probably ONLY own / shoot / carry guns that have a manual safety, and ones where the safety works the same way. And you should be doing a lot of presentation / reholstering reps burning in the use of the safety.

This gets back to the point of this thread. A lot of the little CCW guns don't have safeties, and if they do, they don't really match up to what's on the bigger guns. Thing the Shield vs the bigger M&Ps, all can come with safeties, but the size, feel and operation are a bit different. I could see that being an issue in and of itself. But if you get a small carry gun without a safety, if you get a bigger carry gun, you're almost obliged get one without a safety also.

One final functional point about manual safeties, especially given the big move toward striker guns. Once of the stated advantages of DA/SA hammer guns is that the shooter can ride the hammer on the gun when reholstering. Obviously on an striker gun there is no hammer. But if a striker gun has a safety, the shooter can ride the safety in the safe position when reholstering ensuring it's been activated. This is one thing I'd build into the training reps described above.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:

I could turn this around. Every ND that I know of that has happened to an individual that I'm personally acquainted with has been a result of poor administrative gun handling. It would have occurred whether the firearm was equipped with a safety or not. It all comes down to keeping you booger hook (and other objects) off the trigger until you're ready to fire.

On the flip side, I've had plenty of experiences, even in the safe controlled environment of the range where I've wanted to fire a gun, tried to pull the trigger, and realized the safety was on. Admittedly, this is the result of a lack of training on that particular platform...but I have a lot of different guns, and I'm only going to be able to develop "muscle memory" for a select few. If this can happen on the range, imagine what could happen in a real-life, high stress situation.

The gun grab is an interesting scenario...but IMO, if the bad guy has gained control of your firearm, you've lost the battle already, safety or no safety. My duty gun is carried in a retention holster...formerly the old leather SS3 and now a safariland ALS. So you could say there is a sort of "safety" inherent to the holster. When we switched to the ALS about a year ago, I took it home and drew my unloaded gun from it 4 or 500 times. My thumb was bleeding by the time I was done. I still regularly practice drawing from it, and have it down to a natural smooth movement. I've had to draw under stress from it multiple times now, and it has come out every time. But it took that repetition and training on that particular platform that I carry every day to get to that point.

I guess what I'm saying is...if you're going to carry and train on one platform and feel confident that a manual safety isn't going to delay or inhibit your ability to bring your weapon into action, then by all means employ one. But if you're regularly switching between platforms with a different manual of arms, or not willing to put in the time to train to the point where that manual safety is naturally disengaged as part of your draw, then it may well be a problem in the heat of the moment.

For this reason, I prefer my carry guns to have as simple a manual of arms as possible. My P320, Glock 26, DA/SA P229...all a little different, but all require the exact same process to bring them into action. And when adhering to safety rules, these platforms are just as safe as any with a manual safety.

I agree with the safety in the purse scenario. But if carried in a purse I would also recommend being in a separate compartment. But as many others have posted a good holster or trigger guard mitigates the risk.

quote:

Originally posted by EasyFire:
To my students, I always recommend a safety on any gun that will be carried in a pocket or purse.

Children even toddlers sometimes have amazing hand strength and with a curious nature rummaging in purses and pant pockets, I feel it is dangerous to leave a ready to fire pistol available.

YMMV

I chose a Shield with a safety for my peace of mind and I have dry fire practiced my draw to incorporate flicking down that safety so I think I have established muscle memory for that.

But here's my question for those who feel having a safety on a carry gun is so inadvisable: The 1911 platform is widely acclaimed, but one has to always train to flick off the safety with that type of pistol, so why isn't that an issue? I don't see anyone saying 1911 type pistols shouldn't be carried due to that?

Thanks, I learn a lot here.

quote:

Originally posted by M'headSig:
I chose a Shield with a safety for my peace of mind and I have dry fire practiced my draw to incorporate flicking down that safety so I think I have established muscle memory for that.

But here's my question for those who feel having a safety on a carry gun is so inadvisable: The 1911 platform is widely acclaimed, but one has to always train to flick off the safety with that type of pistol, so why isn't that an issue? I don't see anyone saying 1911 type pistols shouldn't be carried due to that?

Thanks, I learn a lot here.

Well that is the exception that proves the rule.