quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
I have no beard or tats so I must not be the target demographic.
And I was surprised to see the 2022 has not been dumped.
And the gun that started it all? The 220? Almost gone.

Yeah. And not only that, but you can buy your new Ford in a color other than black, you can see people who call you like they did in the Jetsons cartoon, and you can shop for groceries from the comfort of your recliner.

The days of needing a 3 pound pistol the size of a shoebox in order to have 8-9 rounds of .45 on tap are over. So too, are the days of that pistol requiring you to adjust between a 10+pound first shot, and relatively light subsequent shots. They figured out that people seemed to like more ammo, lighter guns, and to have that light trigger from first shot to last.

There is nothing wrong with having a preference for the older guns, but to think that a company shouldn't change with the times to remain relevant is shortsighted IMHO. You dont have to have tattoos and a beard to appreciate the newer guns... Just an open mind.

Then again... If your take away from the new SIG Sauer catalogue is that they are only marketing to folks with tattoos and beards, it might just be that your tolerence for innovation went out the window when electronic fuel injection was introduced.

If that is the case, go tune the points and plugs on your carbuerated hot rod, and make your way to the range where you can run a couple hundred rounds (or, however many your arthritic hands will tolerate) through your favorite antique pistol. It's therapeutic.

^^^^ I don’t know. Most of the men in the catalog had beards, many of them had tats and some of the women had tats.

He does have a point. *Full disclosure: I have a beard.

Reads like you are comparing the capacity of the P220 to the p320. There are better defense rounds in .45 ACP than old ball ammo. I see Members here carrying pocket pistols of low capacity 9mm, some are polymer guns. They probably feel pleanty confidant should they need to use their sidearms for defense. 90 Out of 100 pistols discussed in this Forum are chambered in the 9mm round. Not that its a bad round but most every mid to full size auto has a capacity of 15 rounds or more. I would hope that a man armed with a lower capacity weapon has the ability to shoot well as opposed to some mag dumping LEO with a 18 round weapon. Were it not for budgets across this Country, LEOs would probably select weapons other than Glock, p250 or p320. You get to holster what your Community affords. Dont go knocking weapons of metal manufacture and praising all the plastics. There is much on the new tech poly guns which simply disgust me. The DA/SA Sigs were for safety purposes and said to be for thinking shooters, unlike you 9mm spray and prey uniformed boys. I hope I live to see the day when a plastic guns slide inserts give way in recoil and a shooter gets to eat it. Other features Sig Sauer has added to their pistol line both metal and polymer guns have been balked at by Customers for years. They never listened to the public. I think it to be a absolute farce that we arm up our Military with the 1st Johnny come lately plastic, remolded p250 pistol based on modularity.

quote:

Originally posted by mcs1564:

quote:

Originally posted by Il Cattivo:
No 210 Carry, either.

And the 210 Standard is gone. Although I'd love to see a Carry, I'd be quite surprised if it and the Super Target ever see the light of day.

May have to keep an eye out for a Standard.

I want a 210 standard......crap.....I'll have to move that to the top of the list.

Dear Deputy 617,
I currently own and shoot:
3 P320s, including an optic ready X Compact.
2 P250s
1 SP2022.
And 6 antiquated DA/SA metal Sigs.
Oh, a Sig 1911, too.
Would that qualify me as being open minded?
Looks like even though I dont seem to be well represented in in the current Sig marketing, I have managed to embrace the current trends.
Can you recommend a good tattoo artist while my beard grows out? I so want to fully fit in.

quote:

Originally posted by Berg:
I’m not seeing a p320 subcompact in there. Has that been discontinued?

Appears so; see this thread:

https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...935/m/3420078954/p/1

quote:

Originally posted by Deputy 617:

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
I have no beard or tats so I must not be the target demographic.
And I was surprised to see the 2022 has not been dumped.
And the gun that started it all? The 220? Almost gone.

Yeah. And not only that, but you can buy your new Ford in a color other than black, you can see people who call you like they did in the Jetsons cartoon, and you can shop for groceries from the comfort of your recliner.

The days of needing a 3 pound pistol the size of a shoebox in order to have 8-9 rounds of .45 on tap are over. So too, are the days of that pistol requiring you to adjust between a 10+pound first shot, and relatively light subsequent shots. They figured out that people seemed to like more ammo, lighter guns, and to have that light trigger from first shot to last.

There is nothing wrong with having a preference for the older guns, but to think that a company shouldn't change with the times to remain relevant is shortsighted IMHO. You dont have to have tattoos and a beard to appreciate the newer guns... Just an open mind.

Then again... If your take away from the new SIG Sauer catalogue is that they are only marketing to folks with tattoos and beards, it might just be that your tolerence for innovation went out the window when electronic fuel injection was introduced.

If that is the case, go tune the points and plugs on your carbuerated hot rod, and make your way to the range where you can run a couple hundred rounds (or, however many your arthritic hands will tolerate) through your favorite antique pistol. It's therapeutic.

You do realize that when you include all of the handgun manufacturers of it, the 1911 is the best selling handgun in the United States year after year?????? Dude, and guess what, it's one of those 8 round, 3 pound antique pistols you're talking about designed over 109 years ago and relatively unchanged.

The problem with Sig, is they have around 600 different pistol SKU's, to attract small minded millennials that have the attention span of a gnat and retarded names to go with them. Deputy Dolittle.

It's my fault jimmy123x as I am disapointed in what remains of the pistol line up. Ive handled the 320 gun a bit and its a not bad firearm. Im not much of a poly gun shooter. Probably old fashioned as I still like black iron sight in a time when every pistol is wearing fiber optics or electronic dots. Ive never even looked over these kind of sights. Having a hard time warming up to all things p320 or 365. Just not impressed. If the traditional metal Sig pistol arent going to be made any more then I better find a way to stock up on a few while they are still available. That whole darn catalog looks like tactical war fare arms to me. Most of it I would never own.

Thankfully, the used market is chock full of all metal autos or every kind. I don’t think metal inserts are going to fail and give shooters a face full of slide(exactly how many Glocks have done this? I don’t recall ever hearing of it) and Sig won’t be any different. But I do love my all metal Sigs and am always looking for my next one when the price is right.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

quote:

Originally posted by Deputy 617:

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
I have no beard or tats so I must not be the target demographic.
And I was surprised to see the 2022 has not been dumped.
And the gun that started it all? The 220? Almost gone.

Yeah. And not only that, but you can buy your new Ford in a color other than black, you can see people who call you like they did in the Jetsons cartoon, and you can shop for groceries from the comfort of your recliner.

The days of needing a 3 pound pistol the size of a shoebox in order to have 8-9 rounds of .45 on tap are over. So too, are the days of that pistol requiring you to adjust between a 10+pound first shot, and relatively light subsequent shots. They figured out that people seemed to like more ammo, lighter guns, and to have that light trigger from first shot to last.

There is nothing wrong with having a preference for the older guns, but to think that a company shouldn't change with the times to remain relevant is shortsighted IMHO. You dont have to have tattoos and a beard to appreciate the newer guns... Just an open mind.

Then again... If your take away from the new SIG Sauer catalogue is that they are only marketing to folks with tattoos and beards, it might just be that your tolerence for innovation went out the window when electronic fuel injection was introduced.

If that is the case, go tune the points and plugs on your carbuerated hot rod, and make your way to the range where you can run a couple hundred rounds (or, however many your arthritic hands will tolerate) through your favorite antique pistol. It's therapeutic.

You do realize that when you include all of the handgun manufacturers of it, the 1911 is the best selling handgun in the United States year after year?????? Dude, and guess what, it's one of those 8 round, 3 pound antique pistols you're talking about designed over 109 years ago and relatively unchanged.

The problem with Sig, is they have around 600 different pistol SKU's, to attract small minded millennials that have the attention span of a gnat and retarded names to go with them. Deputy Dolittle.

While I appreciate your assumption of my youthfulness, I can't say that it fits. You see, I began carrying 3 pound antique pistols with low capacity professionally so long ago, that folks who weren't born when I started are now patroling the same area armed with striker fired polymer pistols.

As for the 1911, it is a fine pistol. One with a lot of history, and a great potential for accuracy. Still, as a guy who continues to work as an LEO after all these years, I wouldn't want to depend on one as my primary sidearm these days. I have investigated a lot of shootings as a detective, and bave been involved in an incident or two as well. More rounds is better. You can scream shot placement all you want to, but when hot metal is flying in both directions... It doesn't really work out that way.

Add me to the list of those who have no use for the high capacity plastic guns. Is the need for all those rounds due to the chambering being 9mm?

I worked the streets for 19 years doing robbery/homicide. I investigated almost 200 GSW homicides. And in only one incident did the round count of shots fired - by both/all parties involved exceed 3. And in that one that did exceed 3 shots, the ME told me that the 2nd place winner was killed with the 2nd 45 round that hit him. His killer fired the additional 6 rounds into his corpse doing a "victory dance".

I started with a revolver. We didn't have the internet then, so we didn't know we were undergunned. We just practiced and learned to hit what we aimed at, under stress, so every round would count.

Later when we went to semi autos, we carried those big heavy 8+1, metal framed, hammer fired 45s. We overcame the disadvantage in round count by carrying two extra mags. Not that we would neccesarily need them. Because we felt we would probably be out of time before we were out of ammunition. Unfortunate incidents happen quickly.

And we overcame the crushing weight of those ancient weapons by wearing reinforced gunbelts and holsters made from dead animal skins. We also lifted weights and ate Wheaties back then too though.

Times change. And sometimes change is good. But not every change makes something "better". Or "improved". Regards 18DAI

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good post 18DAI. In reality, if you strip all the metal parts from a alloy frame weapon and scale it against a p320 sans its FCU, I bet there may be 1 ounce in weight difference. Yes the metal pistols have always weighed more but, one is no better protected or less able with a P226 or other metal auto vs a polymer high capacity 9mm. The real difference has to be in manufacturing cost. Polymer frames have few metal pieces molded in and the metal weapons require many machine ops plus finishing to achieve astetics and reliability. A billit, casting or forging requires time and money to complete. The polymer lower is simplistic to make. Barring a little holster weight, a 15+ round metal pistol vs a 15+ round polymer frame weapon are equal for defense. I will say this of the polymer Sigs, no way in hell would I pay some greedy New England gun maker the same price for their polymer gun that I would pay for a weapon which is more complex to manufacture. Now if they managed to make a P226 frame of polymer, I might be more inclined.

Just for the record, no tats or beard here. When I came on, tatoos were an immediate disqualification. And beards were prohibited by policy.

Like I said, times change. But, personally, I will cling to Hokey religions and "ancient" weapons. Excuse me while I strap on my 4566 and go to work at my part time gig at the LGS. Gotta sell those kids some high cap, light weight, small caliber, overpriced blasters. Regards 18DAI

Yeah. And not only that, but you can buy your new Ford in a color other than black, you can see people who call you like they did in the Jetsons cartoon, and you can shop for groceries from the comfort of your recliner.

The days of needing a 3 pound pistol the size of a shoebox in order to have 8-9 rounds of .45 on tap are over. So too, are the days of that pistol requiring you to adjust between a 10+pound first shot, and relatively light subsequent shots. They figured out that people seemed to like more ammo, lighter guns, and to have that light trigger from first shot to last.

There is nothing wrong with having a preference for the older guns, but to think that a company shouldn't change with the times to remain relevant is shortsighted IMHO. You dont have to have tattoos and a beard to appreciate the newer guns... Just an open mind.

Then again... If your take away from the new SIG Sauer catalogue is that they are only marketing to folks with tattoos and beards, it might just be that your tolerence for innovation went out the window when electronic fuel injection was introduced.

If that is the case, go tune the points and plugs on your carbuerated hot rod, and make your way to the range where you can run a couple hundred rounds (or, however many your arthritic hands will tolerate) through your favorite antique pistol. It's therapeutic.[/QUOTE]


I was going to say something similar. The reality is SIG is a business, they have an obligation to make money. They aren't dumping particular pistols because they don't like the people who like those guns, they dump them because they aren't selling enough. I used to dislike SIG for a lot of the things they did, but now I realize they are just doing whatever they can to keep their business profitable and growing. And, they put out a lot more new stuff than anyone else as far as I can tell.

quote:

Originally posted by David Lee:
...The real difference has to be in manufacturing cost. Polymer frames have few metal pieces molded in and the metal weapons require many machine ops plus finishing to achieve astetics and reliability. A billit, casting or forging requires time and money to complete. The polymer lower is simplistic to make...

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

The market demand for polymer is a win-win for gun-manufacturers. They cost much less to produce, to make variants, and have higher profit margins. Glock already did the hard work of making poly-frame, striker-fired pistols the de facto standard.

Think about pens. How is the market for boutique pens, much less fountain pens? When was the last time you were impressed by a Cross or Parker? These days a nice pen is a disposable that costs more than $3.

Pistol weight matters, but its importance varies greatly from person to person. It's not as if all metal frame pistols weigh a lot. One of my favorites is the CZ P-01. The P-01, P-07, and M&P 2.0C all weigh within one ounce of each other. I got rid of the P-07 and M&P I had, b/c they did nothing better for me than the P-01 except for costing less.

I also got rid of a SP2009. Great gun, but it did nothing for me that my P226 and P228 don't do as well or better. Only advantage it had was 3-4oz lighter and cost less. For me, neither of those was enough to warrant keeping it.

quote:

Originally posted by David Lee:
The real difference has to be in manufacturing cost. Polymer frames have few metal pieces molded in and the metal weapons require many machine ops plus finishing to achieve astetics and reliability.

A similar thing happened with ski boots in the 1960s. Traditionally they were made from leather and required a lot of handwork by skilled craftsmen. Then came the plastic molded boots. They were not only better-performing (stiffer for better control of the skis, more waterproof, more durable over all), but they cost pennies on the dollar to produce compared to the old leather boots. The retail price reflected the "value" to the consumer for a better product, not the cost of production. The result was a huge boon to the equipment manufacturers.

The major difference is that leather ski boots disappeared practically overnight, while I believe there will always be a market for metal-framed handguns.

It is also possible that the 2020 SIG catalog is lighter on metal guns in anticipation that the LSI German imported guns are going to be more desirable to the metal SIG enthusiasts than the US made guns. The only thing that might annoy/deter those interested in the German guns is how tastefully LSI does their importation marks.

quote:

Originally posted by 18DAI:
Add me to the list of those who have no use for the high capacity plastic guns. Is the need for all those rounds due to the chambering being 9mm?

I worked the streets for 19 years doing robbery/homicide. I investigated almost 200 GSW homicides. And in only one incident did the round count of shots fired - by both/all parties involved exceed 3. And in that one that did exceed 3 shots, the ME told me that the 2nd place winner was killed with the 2nd 45 round that hit him. His killer fired the additional 6 rounds into his corpse doing a "victory dance".

I started with a revolver. We didn't have the internet then, so we didn't know we were undergunned. We just practiced and learned to hit what we aimed at, under stress, so every round would count.

Later when we went to semi autos, we carried those big heavy 8+1, metal framed, hammer fired 45s. We overcame the disadvantage in round count by carrying two extra mags. Not that we would neccesarily need them. Because we felt we would probably be out of time before we were out of ammunition. Unfortunate incidents happen quickly.

And we overcame the crushing weight of those ancient weapons by wearing reinforced gunbelts and holsters made from dead animal skins. We also lifted weights and ate Wheaties back then too though.

Times change. And sometimes change is good. But not every change makes something "better". Or "improved". Regards 18DAI

Interesting to hear of your vastly different experiences. Having spent quite a few years as a detective for a decent sized agency, and having been assigned to a metro area major case sqaud afforded me the opportunity to investigate many shootings as well to include officer involved shootings.

The last officer involved shooting I worked, the good guy placed 9 rounds of 230 grain Winchester Ranger T Series from his issued P220 into mostly the torso of the bad guy from only a few feet, with a couple rounds hitting extremities. Bad guy sat down (not fell, but sat down) and bled out before EMS arrived. Toxicology showed neither drugs nor alcohol to have been onboard.

Honestly, I would say at least 80% of the officer involved shootings I have worked involved at least one officer firing to slide lock.

Criminal on criminal, and criminal on citizen victim shootings generally have had lower round counts in my experience.

Regardless, I respect everyones experience and as long as they are making informed decisions based upon their experience... I am in no position to judge. My experience has led me to favor larger calibers but higher capacity.