quote:

Find something like this for me in the manual of another firearms manufacturer:

I’m on vacation but I could swear my HKs (P2000/P30) have something about clearing the pistol before returning to holster. I thought I had a CZ manual that said something else. I will check when I get home.

……or I could remember it’s 2025 and use my magic box to look up the manual. Duh.

Page 20 of the P2000 manual does have a blurb about returning the gun to the holster only when cleared.

It does however then go on to say decocked and safety on if applicable is ok too. So I was half right.

CZ has a blurb about always keep and carry your handgun unloaded unless you are prepared to shoot.

The thing about not relying on manual safeties has been doctrine for years. Yeah, when it comes from the manufacturer it's easy to spin it as they're not confident in their mechanical safety mechanisms, but it's universally good advice.

As to carrying without a round in the chamber, I'm pretty sure I've seen that other places before. After a quick search I found reference to it at the bottom of page 7 in the Beretta 92 manual, although Beretta stops short of telling people to do it.

https://www.beretta.com/conten...90_Series_Manual.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

quote:

Find something like this for me in the manual of another firearms manufacturer:

I’m on vacation but I could swear my HKs (P2000/P30) have something about clearing the pistol before returning to holster. I thought I had a CZ manual that said something else. I will check when I get home.

No, I'm referring to the part that says "Act like the safeties don't work."

That's bizarre. It doesn't even sound like the thing a lawyer would conceive; it sounds like something a twenty-something year old would come up with. I'm serious. I get the feeling that no one my age would even consider phrasing a safety caution in that manner. It's downright weird, for a pistol designed to have a round in the chamber.

quote:

"Always handle your firearm as though you expect the safeties not to work."

They're not talking about careless handling or negligence; they're talking about a system failure.

quote:

No, I'm referring to the part that says "Act like the safeties don't work."

Oh hell yeah. That’s crazy talk right there. My bad.

I pulled out a manual from a Sig manufactured in 2022, and the warning below is included; therefore, I stand corrected. The warning is not a new addition.

quote:

"Always handle your firearm as though you expect the safeties not to work. Do not load a cartridge into the chamber until you are ready to use the firearm."

https://www.sigsauer.com/owners-manuals

I also went through some other manufacturers' manuals I have to see who has similar warnings.

Ruger says, "Do not load the pistol until you are ready to us it, and unload it immediately when you have completed shooting."

CZ says, "5. Always carry your pistol empty, except when you intend to shoot."

S&W says, "Do not load the pistol until you are ready to use it. Keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are ready to fire."

Canik, Glock, & HK don't say anything that I'd interpret as a recommendation to carry their gun w/o a round chambered (aka, Israeli carry).

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
If Sig posts anything anymore they get absolutely obliterated in the comments section.

A few hours ago Sig announced a knife collaboration with Hogue and within seconds folks were unleashing.

Wonder if it’s drop safe. Will this go off randomly in your pocket, etc.

Man, I am not sure how they get out of this.

However the knives look great.
Need to find some more info on them.

I saw some of the knives on Amazon the other day. I was surprised.

I don’t know about this “don’t load a round until you’re ready to shoot. What happened to “cocked and locked?”

Interestingly, I got an email from Sig today with a link to a survey. Sure, it was a marketing survey but buried among the many questions whether I’m interested in upgraded optics, upgraded tritium sights. There were questions on whether I have guns with external safeties and would I be interested in upgraded external safeties.

Did anyone else get that email survey?

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:
I pulled out a manual from a Sig manufactured in 2022, and the warning below is included; therefore, I stand corrected. The warning is not a new addition.

For fuck's sake, man.

Here’s my problem in a nutshell - as a police officer I have absolutely pointed my firearms at people that I did not shoot. Probably hundreds of times in 20+ years. If I can’t trust a firearm that’s pointed at a suspect on a felony car stop for example, NOT to discharge because I can’t trust the mechanical safety that keeps the cocked striker in a safe position then that firearm has absolutely NO place in law enforcement service.

I started warming up to the P320 after having been issued one when I was working in CA. At the end of the day, while it was adequate, I’m not of the belief that it does anything better than a host of other firearms to the point that I would trust it enough to own one. There is just too much uncertainty surrounding the P320 at this point, and SIG is only making things worse with their actions and horrifically bad marketing campaign. I’m done with the 320 and at this point I hope it joins the P250 in the dustbin of pistol history.

https://youtu.be/QusWrho19zE?si=CgJGMMUM1EWv-QCm

Interesting take. The video is a couple years old but he made a comment last week

quote:

This video definitely deserves a followup, but I don't have the information needed to make one. I stand by my original assessment as expressed in this video, but that assumes that the parts involved are all made to correct specification. If they are not, then all bets are off. But I just don't have sufficient insight into the situation to make any definitive statements...so I will leave this here until I do.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by cslinger:

quote:

Find something like this for me in the manual of another firearms manufacturer:

I’m on vacation but I could swear my HKs (P2000/P30) have something about clearing the pistol before returning to holster. I thought I had a CZ manual that said something else. I will check when I get home.

No, I'm referring to the part that says "Act like the safeties don't work."

That's bizarre. It doesn't even sound like the thing a lawyer would conceive; it sounds like something a twenty-something year old would come up with. I'm serious. I get the feeling that no one my age would even consider phrasing a safety caution in that manner. It's downright weird, for a pistol designed to have a round in the chamber.

quote:

"Always handle your firearm as though you expect the safeties not to work."

They're not talking about careless handling or negligence; they're talking about a system failure.

I found this same statement about "act like the safeties don`t work" in my SigSauer .22LR conversion kit manual.

The manual for my HK USP states "Always treat the pistol as if it is loaded and ready to fire"
The intent to me is the same, meaning if you pull the trigger it could go off, even when the safety is engaged.

I also recall the statement that any mechanical safety can fail, so don`t rely on it.

quote:

Originally posted by FatherVic:
https://youtu.be/QusWrho19zE?si=CgJGMMUM1EWv-QCm

Interesting take. The video is a couple years old but he made a comment last week

quote:

This video definitely deserves a followup, but I don't have the information needed to make one. I stand by my original assessment as expressed in this video, but that assumes that the parts involved are all made to correct specification. If they are not, then all bets are off. But I just don't have sufficient insight into the situation to make any definitive statements...so I will leave this here until I do.

That was a pretty good video with a pretty thorough analysis of the different issues and factors at play. It's also an honest and objective statement by Ian in his update. Nothing wrong with saying you don't know when you don't know....definitely better than making stuff up.

I just completed my armorer's recert on the P320 and P365 this week. I'll be honest, I went into it looking for problems, but honestly the more I work inside of these the harder it is for me to believe that a properly maintained and in-spec P320 could fire on its own. There's just too many redundant safety mechanisms built into the design.

What I can believe is that people are screwing them up. There are a lot of small parts, and if you don't understand or pay attention to how they all work together and ensure that they are properly installed, things can go wrong.
A number of the loaner guns in our class came out of the box improperly assembled...presumably by the last armorer's class that used them. One guy's extractor was improperly installed, and some of the pins in the FCU I got were in backwards. If Sig-trained agency armorers aren't getting it right, imagine what joe-blo off the street is screwing up when he starts "customizing" his gun.

I did talk to the instructor after class about the P320 issues. He was an adjunct, not a full-time Sig employee, but has been working for Sig for a long time and seemed like a straight-up guy. He said Sig's position is still that the guns are safe, and their recommendations have not changed. I asked him if he knew of any common failure areas that we should be paying extra attention to that may have come to light during their followup investigations. He said they haven't received any additional guidance, and to stick to the inspection points outlined in the manual and perform the proscribed function checks. He was an ex-LE guy and seemed like a pretty straight shooter, so I think he would have told me if he knew of anything.

The pre-cocked striker concept still doesn't give the warm safety fuzzies of my DA/SA guns, but I don't feel any less safe carrying a P320 (especially one that I've inspected and maintained myself) than I would any other pre-cocked striker-fired handgun.

quote:

Originally posted by 92fstech:
The pre-cocked striker concept still doesn't give the warm safety fuzzies of my DA/SA guns, but I don't feel any less safe carrying a P320 (especially one that I've inspected and maintained myself) than I would any other pre-cocked striker-fired handgun.

For me, that's really the crux of the issue. I don't get warm fuzzies either, but I knew going into this that this is exactly what this firearm is - pre-cocked striker. And where I believe that Ian's assessment is as truthful as it gets and that this all might just be a bunch of hullabaloo by the "I hate Sig" crowd, adding a trigger safety would go a long way for Sig's PR.

I don't know of too many striker configurations outside of Sig that don't use one.

^^^You’re correct that most striker-fired pistols have a trigger tab safety. However, not all of them have one for the same reason(s). Based on the videos I’ve seen that illustrate the potential issues with the P320, I’m actually no longer convinced that a trigger tab safety would help.

quote:

Originally posted by 12131:
I get all that and totally agree, except for the last sentence, "Today, for SIG SAUER - it ends". What does that even mean? What is SIG going to do?

I would hope that it means that Sig Sauer will counter sue every person/organization who files against them to the very end. As for what suits can be filed, there is a host of them if you have a good team of Lawyers dig into them. Beyond Slander and Defamation we have Restraint of Trade and likely another 200 or more statutes that the legal system has ignored for many years but are still in force.

I sold my 320's last year. I just don't trust them. I am very happy with P229's and my P226's and 'ole reliable P220.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:
I pulled out a manual from a Sig manufactured in 2022, and the warning below is included; therefore, I stand corrected. The warning is not a new addition.

quote:

"Always handle your firearm as though you expect the safeties not to work. Do not load a cartridge into the chamber until you are ready to use the firearm."

https://www.sigsauer.com/owners-manuals

I also went through some other manufacturers' manuals I have to see who has similar warnings.

Ruger says, "Do not load the pistol until you are ready to us it, and unload it immediately when you have completed shooting."

CZ says, "5. Always carry your pistol empty, except when you intend to shoot."

S&W says, "Do not load the pistol until you are ready to use it. Keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are ready to fire."

Canik, Glock, & HK don't say anything that I'd interpret as a recommendation to carry their gun w/o a round chambered (aka, Israeli carry).

From my 2009-era Glock 32 manual:

Caution
Do not carry the pistol in the ready to fire condition. This is not the recommended safe-carrying method for civilian use.

Lawyers. Hrumph. Over on a wheel gun forum they literally think drifting the rear sight on a Bodyguard 2.0 voids their warranty. Why? Because in the manual in one spot it says only drift the front and in another it says the rear is drift adjustable. Common sense and the ability to do basic mechanical activity has left the building. That is a childlike wording though. The point is and always has been valid, it is just worded oddly.