quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
I'm the one that said I'm not totally sold on the DAK trigger... part of this is I've been trained and shooting SA/DA for a very long time.... the other issue might be that my first DAK pistol was a P239 in 357sig and that round alone takes some getting used to shooting.... So, my learning curve maybe more the combination than the DAK alone. I've ended up putting a DAK trigger in my 9mm P239 and that may be a little easier to 'tame'.

Why would a caliber change affect your choice as to whether you use or ignore the optional short reset?

I did not mean that.... I just don't understand the need for the first seemingly shorter reset on the DAK trigger... it is not that much shorter and is a couple (2or 3) pounds harder....

My issue with caliber change was that shooting 357sig in a p239 is a bit of a chore for me over the standard 9mm.

In this regard... (nothing to do with triggers) I have noticed over the years there is a big difference when shooting a pistol... where you shoot it... inside, under a roof outside, or just out in the open.... I have not shot at an inside range in a long time... I usually shoot at my gun club at the pistol range which has a covered roof.... stepping out from under the roof and the concussion from shooting becomes pretty nil.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
I did not mean that.... I just don't understand the need for the first seemingly shorter reset on the DAK trigger... it is not that much shorter and is a couple (2or 3) pounds harder....

sigfreund's expertise on the DAK trigger can be found in years' worth of posts on it...or you can simply refer to his previous post in this thread, explaining the purpose and use of the short reset...in short, you are correct, it is not needed, but instead an optional feature for those who place an emphasis on shorter faster trigger pulls rather than lighter trigger pulls. Not needed...optional.

Although I consider myself a DAK proponent I can't help but wonder why you would choose to carry a trigger system that you don't fully understand or are proficient in... especially given that your chosen carry pistol is available in other trigger options? Not "sold" on it, don't carry it, especially if there is another option you are "sold" on.

quote:

My issue with caliber change was that shooting 357sig in a p239 is a bit of a chore for me over the standard 9mm.

In this regard... (nothing to do with triggers) I have noticed over the years there is a big difference when shooting a pistol... where you shoot it... inside, under a roof outside, or just out in the open.... I have not shot at an inside range in a long time... I usually shoot at my gun club at the pistol range which has a covered roof.... stepping out from under the roof and the concussion from shooting becomes pretty nil.

Do you double plug? Over the years of transitioning from only outdoor shooting to mostly indoor or covered station shooting I've found that using both quality well fitted Ear Pro combined with well fitted properly inserted plugs are a necessity. They won't do anything to cut down on pressurized concussion but sometimes the reduction in noise level seems to help endure the concussive forces...at least until fatigue kicks in.

Maybe I'm over thinking this and you know 'proficient' is kind of relative...

having taken and paid for numerous handgun courses some of which lasted for days I am more proficient with a number of different handguns than the average LEO at least according to the experts.... but I do find that there is always another level to reach.

The issue I noted with shooting inside or under a roof was not the noise but the concussion coming back at you.. This really does not bother me but I could see how it would a novice shooter.

We were issued the P229 in 357 sig and it would take a toll on you shooting indoors all day. We switched to 40S&W in 2012 and there is a difference, no issues with muzzle blast.

quote:

Originally posted by Blume9mm:
Maybe I'm over thinking this and you know 'proficient' is kind of relative...

having taken and paid for numerous handgun courses some of which lasted for days I am more proficient with a number of different handguns than the average LEO at least according to the experts.... but I do find that there is always another level to reach.

The issue I noted with shooting inside or under a roof was not the noise but the concussion coming back at you.. This really does not bother me but I could see how it would a novice shooter.

Quality training is money well spent and I agree that we should all strive to improve our skills; but I'm curious, in any of these classes...did they happen to cover the use of the short trigger reset on the DA/ SA...you say that you have much more experience with the DA/SA system, you know, the one with the optional = not needed, easily ignored short trigger reset? Does the short trigger reset of DA/SA confuse you as much as the DAK short trigger reset?

I'm still unclear as to how the handgun classes you've taken have developed your proficiency to the point where you knowingly adopt a trigger system (DAK) for your carry gun, that, by your own words, you "aren't sold on" and "don't understand the need for the first seemingly shorter reset on the DAK trigger".

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
the short trigger reset on the DA/ SA

Aaaaand ... there we have the most risible aspect of the whole “It has two trigger pulls!” angst that has dogged the DAK trigger since its inception. It’s becoming less common these days, but when the DAK was introduced, virtually everyone who reviewed it was experienced with SIG DA/SA pistols. Never once, however, did I read a review pointing out that if someone was proficient with the long, heavy double action pull followed by the very short, much lighter single action trigger stroke that they should have no trouble whatsoever adapting to the DAK’s long, but not-so-heavy first pull followed by the short reset pull that was very similar to the initial pull.

A reviewer had no problem with the Classic DA/SA trigger system, but was totally flummoxed by the DAK—‽ I could never be a columnist for a firearms oriented periodical with its demands for constant output and therefore I have a certain respect for those who are, but there are things that really make me wonder about some people’s intelligence, or at least common sense.

As I’ve said many times before, the DAK system is dying, if not totally dead, and even at the peak of its never great popularity I knew better than to try to convert others to adopt it. I keep getting involved in these threads, though, because if someone has enough interest to even comment on the system, they deserve to know the facts and not rumor and myth.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
the short trigger reset on the DA/ SA

Aaaaand ... there we have the most risible aspect of the whole “It has two trigger pulls!” angst that has dogged the DAK trigger since its inception. It’s becoming less common these days, but when the DAK was introduced, virtually everyone who reviewed it was experienced with SIG DA/SA pistols. Never once, however, did I read a review pointing out that if someone was proficient with the long, heavy double action pull followed by the very short, much lighter single action trigger stroke that they should have no trouble whatsoever adapting to the DAK’s long, but not-so-heavy first pull followed by the short reset pull that was very similar to the initial pull.

I've been pondering a question for a few years and this may be the best place to ask it and, given the decline or demise of the DAK, this is really more of a hypothetical design question; based on persistent confusion by shooters, if SIG had chosen to, is there any mechanical reason why the short reset trigger option could not have been eliminated from the DAK trigger, while leaving the longer lighter pull unchanged?

Mind you, I don't see the need for such a design change, but I can't help but wonder if it would have improved acceptance of the DAK by the average shooter who couldn't be bothered to learn about the 'intracasies' of the short trigger reset.

I have a 220 carry with the DAK trigger. I have to actively pay total attention to the resets to tell any difference. They may be only 1 pound difference. It's not drastic like the differences between the reset's on a DA/SA. The DAK trigger to me is a tremendous system and should still be manufactured. After firing , it automatically de-cocks, to a user friendly trigger pull.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
if SIG had chosen to, is there any mechanical reason why the short reset trigger option could not have been eliminated from the DAK trigger, while leaving the longer lighter pull unchanged?

I mentioned this earlier, but only in passing.

I believe that the lighter double action pull would be possible without including the short reset if the hammer were simply redesigned to move the contact point with the trigger bar farther from the hammer pivot point. I suspect that just adding the long DAK hook at the bottom of the hammer would be sufficient. That lowered contact point and the resulting greater mechanical advantage of the system with what is in effect a longer lever arm is why the full reset DAK pull is lighter than that of the double action pull of the DA/SA models or of the original DAO.

I have only a vague idea beyond that of what would be necessary to allow the trigger to reset fully after every shot as the old style SIG double action only (DAO) trigger does. It might simply be a matter of eliminating the short reset stud on the hammer and modifying the trigger bar as required. I could probably figure out a definitive answer if I went back and looked at the DAO mechanism more closely and compared it to the DAK system, but at this point I do not know what detailed specifics would be necessary. I cannot, however, believe it wouldn’t have been possible—and much simpler.

That question why the short reset feature was included with the DAK system is one I’ve long pondered in view of the conflicting claims and opinions about its original purpose. As I’ve said several times in these discussions, in my opinion the only logical reason was to reduce complaints about the long trigger reset of the original DAO system. The DAK short reset isn’t as short as the reset of the single action mode or the reset in guns like the Glock and its many imitators, but it is an improvement for those of us who choose to use it. Going to the trouble of designing and adding the short reset option to help ensure shooters don’t short stroke the trigger in rapid fire strings or the even less likely need to permit multiple strikes in the event of a misfire (and which could have been accomplished by other means) has just never made any sense to me.

An interesting thing with the DAK trigger is if you have a dud round or if you dry fire with a DAK. You are able to pull the trigger a small amount and reset the trigger from off the firing pin and back onto the reset point usually attained after the action has been run either by a round firing or by the slide moving when loading a round into the chamber. Not sure what purpose this does, but I find it interesting.

I have this (from the forum --- long ago) in a text file. sigfreund: were you the author?

The following isn't the most up to date discussion, but I haven't finished that one yet and probably won't for awhile. The below comments were composed in 2006 and 2007 and part is in response to issues that haven't been raised here on the forum in some months. Perhaps, mirabile dictu!, the message is finally being received.

-----------------------------------

Last June [2005] I had a chance to become familiar with the DAK trigger system at the SIGARMS Academy Armorer Certification course. I was impressed enough with the system that with help from James of Ordnance Outsellers, I am now the owner of three DAK SIGs—two 357 SIG P229s and one 40 S&W P226R—that I’ve acquired in the past month. Thus far I’ve fired 1100 rounds with the three guns.

I’ve been a fan of the Classic-series SIG double action only (DAO) trigger for several years and as most forum members know by now, the DAK is another DAO trigger system. It differs, though, from the “standard” DAO trigger in two ways. Most noticeably, the trigger pull weight is much less. According to SIG, the “full reset” (more about that later) DAK trigger pull runs 6.5 pounds. Likewise, the double action trigger pull weight of the standard Classic-series pistols is supposedly 10 pounds. I must say that I’ve always been a little skeptical of the 10# claim. Admittedly, I’ve never actually measured the pull force of my standard DAO triggers, but with stock mainsprings they all seem heavier than 10 pounds; moreover, a number people who have measured the trigger pull have found weights of 12 pounds or even more. The point of all of this is that my DAK triggers are much, much lighter than the standard SIG double action trigger. That weight difference is, I believe, the true benefit of the DAK trigger.

But wait; there’s more! A common complaint about SIG triggers from people who are used to shooting other guns is the length of the trigger reset, especially the double action only reset. The DAK offers to those people the option of a short reset. Once the gun has been fired and the slide cycles, the trigger can be reset by allowing it to go forward about 1/4–1/3 inch, as compared with about twice that for the full reset. A disadvantage (if it is) of using the short reset point is that the trigger pull is then heavier, about 8.5 pounds according to SIG. I say “if it is” because I actually seem to do better when trying for precision shots with the heavier pull. Of course, the other disadvantage of using the short trigger reset for shots following the first one in a string is that now we’re back to one thing that DAO fans don’t like about the traditional double action/single action (DA/SA) triggers: not having a consistent pull for every shot. If you use the short reset, not only does the trigger pull distance change, but also the pull weight. I’ve experimented with rapid fire strings alternating between the full reset every time and using the short reset. Although the jury is still out on which I prefer, I strongly suspect the verdict will ultimately be in favor of using the full reset for every shot. [No longer true; I much prefer the short reset.] The thing to keep in mind about the short reset is that it’s optional; you don’t have to use it if you don’t want to.

I believe that the DAK trigger offers a lot for the inexperienced shooter or someone who doesn’t have particularly strong hands.

Addressing the second point first, many novice shooters have difficulty pulling the “regular” SIG double action trigger once, much less 10, 20 or 50 times. You can’t enjoy the benefits of the DAO trigger mode if pulling the trigger is an aim- and control-destroying struggle every time. I don’t have that problem myself, but many people do.
Reduce the trigger pull weight to 60 percent of the traditional DA pull, however, and the situation changes dramatically. The difference between a 6.5# pull and a 10-12 pound pull can have huge practical effects. There’s a lot more to good trigger control than pull weight, but the first requirement is that the shooter be able to pull the trigger smoothly and confidently.

For the inexperienced (and experienced) shooter, a DAO trigger offers a couple of advantages.

As mentioned before, every shot is the same; there’s no requirement to shift mental or physical gears to fire the gun two different ways from shot to shot. Second, there’s only one mechanical control to deal with: the trigger. Pull the trigger and the gun fires. Don’t pull the trigger and it doesn’t. There’s no manual safety or decocker to remember or engage to fire the gun or to put it into a safe mechanical condition. Admittedly, learning to use manual safeties and decockers is not very difficult, but it’s not automatic and if it’s not necessary, it’s, well ..., not necessary.

Another thing that the DAK trigger provides is a multiple strike capability by pulling the trigger again. I don’t personally believe that feature is very important, but some people do and even in my estimation it’s one of those “it can’t hurt” things. It also makes dry-firing easier.

I have a traditional DA/SA P225. I keep thinking I should get rid of the gun because I never use it myself. I always hesitate, though, because it’s such a good training gun for novices, and especially people like teenagers and women with small hands. But even though I’ve installed a lower-power mainspring, the real hurdle that new shooters have to deal with is the heavy double action trigger. If my 225 had a DAK trigger, I’d never let it go.

For the shooter who is experienced and happy with the standard SIG DAO trigger, I’m not certain that the DAK offers that much of an advantage to make it worth switching. I still have and intend to keep some regular DAO pistols. However, I’m sure that if I take one out for a spin after a year of nothing but shooting the DAKs, the much heavier pull will take some getting used to again. If my circumstances were different, I probably would not have spent the money required to switch my primary carry guns to DAK from standard DAO. For the new shooter, however, or for someone with only a small investment in carry guns, I believe the DAK is an excellent new system.

To return to my individual DAK pistols, I detail stripped, cleaned, and lubricated each one before taking them to the range. They have all been completely reliable from the first shot (except for a magazine issue—see below) and accurate. The two I tested from a rest consistently grouped from 1 to 1.5" at 15 yards.


====================================================

Addition to above posted 12 May 2007:
Below is a discussion of the DAK system that I posted in September 2005.

I now own nine DAK pistols, from P220 to P239, and including a P226ST that Bruce Gray converted by modifying the DA/SA frame. I now have over 9300 [>10,000 on 2 June 2007] rounds through DAK pistols. [I currently own an even dozen DAK SIGs.]
As I said, I’m a fan of the system.

I and many other people find that the DAK trigger is no hindrance to combat style or even deliberate shooting accuracy. I have a target in front of me that I shot two weeks ago at 25 yards standing unsupported with a DAK 9mm P226 using cheap practice ammo: five shots, center-to-center, just under 2.5 inches. Even when I have a DA/SA gun to shoot for accuracy, I shoot it double action.
I’m sure that practiced competitors can shoot light-recoiling guns with single action triggers faster than I can shoot the double action DAK. I’m not that fast to begin with, but my cadence is recoil-limited, not trigger mode limited. For defensive type shooting, the tiny fractions of a second advantage of a SA trigger don’t outweigh the benefits of the DAK system to me.

The DAK trigger is light, smooth, and consistent. I had the “opportunity” (chore—?) of shooting a Glock last week as part of a training demonstration. I managed to avoid looking like a total klutz with its heavier, inconsistent, spongy trigger, but I was very happy to go back to my DAK.

SIG is putting heavier mainsprings in DAKs these days than what was standard when I posted the below report. The new springs add about 1/2+ pound to the pull weight. I don’t notice it.

It’s gotten to the point that when someone posts the tired old “short reset” or “two resets” complaint about the DAK system, I’m literally embarrassed for them.
The short reset is optional, Optional, OPTIONAL! Optional means that the shooter doesn’t have to use it. Optional means it can be ignored. Optional means not using it has no effect on anything. Optional means optional.

The shooter who has a traditional SIG is required to switch between the double action and single action trigger modes in normal combat-style rapid fire shooting. It’s just plain silly to claim that a new shooter can easily adapt to switching between DA and SA with a traditional SIG, but that the OPTIONAL short DAK reset poses an insurmountable obstacle. If you’re saying that, a bit of friendly advice: Stop. You’re making yourself look foolish.

The DA/SA system is fine. If you prefer it, go with it. The new short reset trigger makes it even nicer.
If you’re thinking of the DAK system, though, it’s important to understand it and not be misled by the ignorant.

quote:

Originally posted by Gear.Up:
sigfreund: were you the author?

Yes, I was.
My most recent version of the DAK rant is somewhat revised and perhaps more temperate (but maybe not), but not much has changed.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:
the short trigger reset on the DA/ SA

Aaaaand ... there we have the most risible aspect of the whole “It has two trigger pulls!” angst that has dogged the DAK trigger since its inception. It’s becoming less common these days, but when the DAK was introduced, virtually everyone who reviewed it was experienced with SIG DA/SA pistols. Never once, however, did I read a review pointing out that if someone was proficient with the long, heavy double action pull followed by the very short, much lighter single action trigger stroke that they should have no trouble whatsoever adapting to the DAK’s long, but not-so-heavy first pull followed by the short reset pull that was very similar to the initial pull.

A reviewer had no problem with the Classic DA/SA trigger system, but was totally flummoxed by the DAK—‽ I could never be a columnist for a firearms oriented periodical with its demands for constant output and therefore I have a certain respect for those who are, but there are things that really make me wonder about some people’s intelligence, or at least common sense.

As I’ve said many times before, the DAK system is dying, if not totally dead, and even at the peak of its never great popularity I knew better than to try to convert others to adopt it. I keep getting involved in these threads, though, because if someone has enough interest to even comment on the system, they deserve to know the facts and not rumor and myth.

Maybe I should think of dumping my DAK equipped guns.

quote:

Originally posted by 10round:
We were issued the P229 in 357 sig and it would take a toll on you shooting indoors all day. We switched to 40S&W in 2012 and there is a difference, no issues with muzzle blast.

I have a Glock 32C (357 SIG with factory ported barrel) and took it to a local shoot once. Outdoor range but this particular stage was setup on a range with a roof cover.

A buddy was ROing me and when I was done with that stage he told me that he almost stopped me after my first shot because he thought my gun blew up.

quote:

... if SIG had chosen to, is there any mechanical reason why the short reset trigger option could not have been eliminated from the DAK trigger, while leaving the longer lighter pull unchanged?

What is perceived as the 'first' of 2 resets was NEVER meant to be used as an actual reset. The second reset is really the main and only reset on the DAK.

BUT, if the "first" reset wasn't there, then if the hammer fell on a hard or deep seated primer and the round didn't go off then you wouldn't be able to pull the trigger a second time to try and get the round to go off. That is the only purpose of the "first" reset.

quote:

I'm curious, in any of these classes...did they happen to cover the use of the short trigger reset on the DA/ SA...you say that you have much more experience with the DA/SA system, you know, the one with the optional = not needed, easily ignored short trigger reset? Does the short trigger reset of DA/SA confuse you as much as the DAK short trigger reset?

I'm still unclear as to how the handgun classes you've taken have developed your proficiency to the point where you knowingly adopt a trigger system (DAK) for your carry gun, that, by your own words, you "aren't sold on" and "don't understand the need for the first seemingly shorter reset on the DAK trigger".

Yes, the four day classes I've taken get into the reset of the trigger on a semi-auto and in fact I have 4 pistols with a short reset system, two of which I installed myself..

I for a while carried a pistol with a striker fired system (Ruger LC9 pro) but then decided I did not feel totally comfortable with it (here we go again?) and switched to a Sig P290 (totally double action) even a P250 for a shorter time... then I found a deal (?) on a 9mm P239 in SA/DA which I had wanted for a number of years and so I discover that the P239 with a good grip fit my hand perfectly..... I had been curious and for certain reasons want to step up to Sig 357 for a while and along comes a P226 in 357 sig from a fellow member here who lives near me.... little spare cash and there I am.... again more than y'all need to know... two weeks later I fall off a roof and break two vertebrae and can't work for a month and during that time sitting around I buy off gun broker another P239... good deal except it is in 40 caliber and had a DAK trigger... buy a 357 barrel from a member here and start 'discovering' the DAK system.
For me personally for carry I prefer (at least right now) a long double action type pull on the first shot and am working on being as proficient with the same 'consistent' long pull on repeated shots... For me it is obvious that a nice crips single action trigger will give one the best accuracy... but since I choose not to go with SAO (cocked and locked for carry) or striker fired... there we are.... 'learning' with DAK is where I am right now. train my brain to accept two clicks....

FWIW, I was 'raised' on DA/SA Sig pistols. Tried to like the plastic striker models from various companies - but while they can be easier to shoot, I never warmed up them and they were all sold (except the P365). In comes a P226 SAO Elite, super accurate, easy to shoot, flawless. I then got a great deal on a P229 40SW DAK (sub $400) for ABNIB firearm. Admittedly, it has taken dry firing for a while, and range time to get used to the DAK trigger but I can shoot that as well as any of my other firearms (SAO, DA/SA, and the one striker I have). I use the P229 as my daily carry piece and am confident that when and if I need it, I won't have an issue with the trigger system.

I own no DAK Sigs, but I really liked the trigger system. When they first came out, a gun writer friend brought some to the range as part of a review he was doing. What a night, our defensive shooting group had new Sigs for three hours and all the free ammo we could shoot!

I already owned two Sig DA/SA's. My first and only impression of the DAKs was overwhelmingly positive. Especially as a revolver shooter of over 30 years. OK, why didn't I ever buy one? Simple, I had then been shooting my DA/SA's for 10 years and was very proficient with the DA/SA system.

Two other things: (1) For purely defensive shooting, my range performance was probably six of one and a half-dozen of the other (DA/SA vs DAK). (2) Since I already had two DA/SA's, I didn't relish the thought of replacing them both ($$$) with DAKs. The new learning curve required with DAK never entered the picture. I can adapt to anything if I want to.

I wonder how many potential sales were lost from existing Sig DA/SA owners like me. Also, for those new to Sigs back then, one of the allures was all of the government agencies using Sig DA/SA. Chances are they would opt for the DA/SA variant rather than the DAK.

Regardless, it's sad that such a good system has gone the way of the dinosaurs.

DAKs are great.

The Bruce Grey Hybrid DAK system tune is Fantastic !!!!